Barf Type Diets

[zayda_asher]

Hello all I know BARF has just about been done to death.... but I'm researching at the moment and I would like to hear from people who:

1) Use BARF diets and their good experiences

2) People who have tried BARF and not stuck with it - why?

3) Any people who have had bad experiences - what were they?

What I'd like to know from people who do use BARF are:

1) What do you typically feed, when, how, why?

2) What suppliments do you put in and why?

3) Do you find / think you feed them more or less than on other diets to keep their condition?

Zayda has severe allergies (as you are probablly all sick of hearing about by now ) This means for us NO:

Beef

Lamb

Corn

Sardines

Tuna

Eggs

So I am also looking at what alternatives we can use for some of these foods as I know beef, lamb & eggs are often a large part of BARF diets..... Roo, herring, mackeral, chicken, turkey are all used on a regular basis (I also know she is fine with donkey and goat, although they don't get these very often). They are also on omega 3s.

I'm still at the research / learning / thinking stage so any info at the moment is useful....

Cheers,

Dan

[Staff'n'Toller]

When you say she has severe allergies....what happens when she eats these things?

Just wondered, have an allergic staffy myself....but she is allergic to large proteins.

Mel.

[zayda_asher]

Here's a couple of links to other posts on Zayda's allergies:

http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...15entry337955

http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...=0entry320374

We work with a dermatologist and have been through all the testing for allergies including a full and on going elimination diet.

She has a range of reactions depending on the allergen including:

1) Itchy skin (at its worst resulting in her ripping herself apart)

2) Yeast infection in ears and on skin (which also makes them smelly)

3) Lip fold pyoderma

4) congestion resulting in runny nose / eyes & snoring

5) Lack of concentration / ADD type symptoms

6) Vulvitis

7) Extreme motion sickness

8) When she is bad she makes people with sensitive skin very itchy

That's a quick list of the top of my head... now that we have her under control we see very few of these symptoms or they are in a very mild form...

She was also a Demodetic mange pup...... She is also on immunotherapy for an atopy (alternaria mould).....

Cheers,

Dan

[Staff'n'Toller]

:D

Geez....she's got the lot hasn't she?

I'm sure that there are others that will have great BARF info for you...I don't have advanced knowledge of it myself. I've got Billinghursts books tho.

All I can share is that my staffy has food/contact allergies, she used to suffer from hotspots, itchiness, feet chewing, generalised inflamed skin, and contact allergies.

She does give me itchy skin too when I come into close contact with her.

I tried BARF but didn't have much success. I just don't have enough time to do BARF for all of my dogs although I'd love to.

I also tried Eukanuba Fish and Potato low residue- no joy.

I tried Hills Z/D Ultra 'cause a rep challenged me to try it and promised there would be an improvement. I doubted it- but I tried it partly to prove her wrong LOL. Fortunately for Gypsy, she was right- I noticed a big improvement in her skin colour, didn't realise how pink she was all the time, until I started feeding it, also she always had terrible wind- could clear the room!! No probs with that anymore either.

It's probably not what you want as it may still have cornmeal in it- I haven't got a packet so can't check on the ingredients...but they also do a Whitefish and Rice (?D/D?) as a novel protein source.

Just wanted to post my experiences...may be of no help whatsoever but good luck with it.

Mel.

Edited April 3, 2005 by StaffordsRule

[zayda_asher]

Geez....she's got the lot hasn't she?

Yeah.... you could say that!! We certainly have had a big time sorting it all out!

I tried Hills Z/D Ultra 'cause a rep challenged me to try it and promised there would be an improvement. I doubted it- but I tried it partly to prove her wrong LOL. Fortunately for Gypsy, she was right- I noticed a big improvement in her skin colour, didn't realise how pink she was all the time, until I started feeding it, also she always had terrible wind- could clear the room!! No probs with that anymore either.

Oh... I forgot flatulence - the eggs particularly give that to Zayda.... and she gets terrible Colitis too... How's Gypsy go with keeping in condition on the z/d? This is what we had Zayda on whilst doing the elimination diet... The reason why it is good for allergy diet is that the protiens have been hydrogenised to such a point that they are almost completely broken down... means they don't actually get too much out of it ... When Zayda was on it she wouldn't gain any weight (the dermatologists will tell you that they may, in fact, loose a lot of weight)- we though she was going to stay a skinny 18 kilo dog for a while until we found a puppy food she could have!!

At the moment they are actually on Supercoat Special Care (chicken and rice) and Advance Turkey and Rice... they are doing well on it, but I'm looking at options to take them off comercial foods.... I do know that she can have the Salmon & Rice and the Duck & Rice... but they are expensive and hard to get (even the vets have problems).....

We can't use the Eukanuba Fish & Potato because they list "Animal fat" which normally is beef tallow.... Zayda will react to the smallest amount of her allergens.....

Thanks for sharing your story and good luck with your girl!

Cheers,

Dan

Edited April 3, 2005 by zayda_asher

[cdenyer]

My experience with BARF diet.

I have a 5 yr old female Brittany who has been on a "fresh" diet for 3 years.

Her diet is fairly simple and made up of the following:

Roo Tails

Chicken Wings

Vegetables (uncooked and mulched)

Fish (once a week and only whiting or garfish or other fine boned fish)

Raw Eggs are mixed in occasionally.

Fairly straightforward, and she has thrived on it. Her coat is glossy and soft and we don't wash her( we let her occasional swim take care of that.)

Her poos are solid and not messy, and her breath is bearable And her teeth are in good nick.

And she has had no health issues at all, so all in all we will never go back to a processed diet, and are lucky that we have a very good Pet Food Supplier who supplies all except the fish at good prices.

And our "new" Toller puppy will go onto a fresh diet when he is between 10-12 months old.I might start earlier but will have to seek advice from my vet as to whether this is a good idea.

Edited April 3, 2005 by cdenyer

[Purple Julie]

I don't feed a strictly BARF diet. I feed raw, but don't do the vegies.

Jyra gets lamb, beef, pork, ox, roo and chicken. These are in raw meaty bones and muscle cuts.

She also gets organs (5% of her diet), which are kidneys, liver, giblets. She won't eat spleen or intestines. I have also given her brains and she ate them, but I can't find them anywhere now.

I also give Jyra tinned mackeral and tinned sardines, as she won't eat raw fish. She also gets an egg occasionally.

I don't give Jyra any supplements.

Jyra has had no problems on this diet. Her coat is shiny, but it always was anyway, and her poos are nice and small.

I realise that Zayda can't eat a lot of what I give Jyra, so I'm not a lot of help. Since Zayda can't have a lot of the red meats, maybe give her chicken livers so that she gets enough iron. You don't want to give a big serving of that all at once. I give Jyra a serving of about 90 grams one day, and then I wouldn't give her another serving for three days, but maybe you should start with a smaller amount, say 20-30 grams and see how Zayda reacts.

[poodlefan]

I've been feeding raw for about seven years and recently raised my first all raw fed pup.

My white toy poodle no longer has the eye stains she had when I got her. The dog's have great teeth, lots of energy and no body odour.

I feed mostly raw chicken (wing, necks), lamb necks and the occasional beef bone. They have two days of RMBs and one day of "BARF mix". Occasionally they get some mackeral or sardines.

The BARF mix contains, eggs, yoghurt, missing link, some offal, beef mince and a heck of a lot of veggie pulp. I make it up once every couple of weeks and freeze in meal sized batches.

I'm very happy feeding this way.

Personally, for a dog with allergies, I'd email Dr Billinghurst or join a BARF List and start from there. As a first step, I'd be eliminating cereals from her diet.

[ish]

I have also given her brains and she ate them, but I can't find them anywhere now.

[Purple Julie]

I have also given her brains and she ate them, but I can't find them anywhere now.

Ha ha! Yes, It's quite funny when I say that, "I want to buy some brains."

[Staff'n'Toller]

Yes I had heard that Z/D made them lose weight and coat condition too, but have had no probs with Gypsy, she is a stable 14kg, and her coat I think looks better than it did on any other foods which suprised me as well!! If they were losing weight on it I would just feed more of it.

That's a shame about the duck and rice, I know it is a bit harder to get but my rep has said that they will keep producing it because it is one of those novel protein foods that most companies don't make, perhaps an idea would be to contact the company direct and tell them you're having trouble getting it.

Gypsy is doing great on the Z/D so I wouldn't change it now....plus she loves to eat it, I think it smells pretty good myself! LOL We had a dog who trialled on it then the owners tried to switch back to the original adult formula- dog starved itself for 3 days- refused to eat the original stuff they had to go back to Z/D!!

Cheers,

Mel.

[cdenyer]

I've been feeding raw for about seven years and recently raised my first all raw fed pup.

My white toy poodle no longer has the eye stains she had when I got her. The dog's have great teeth, lots of energy and no body odour.

I feed mostly raw chicken (wing, necks), lamb necks and the occasional beef bone. They have two days of RMBs and one day of "BARF mix". Occasionally they get some mackeral or sardines.

The BARF mix contains, eggs, yoghurt, missing link, some offal, beef mince and a heck of a lot of veggie pulp. I make it up once every couple of weeks and freeze in meal sized batches.

I'm very happy feeding this way.

Personally, for a dog with allergies, I'd email Dr Billinghurst or join a BARF List and start from there. As a first step, I'd be eliminating cereals from her diet.

I would be interested to know how you went with raising your pup on a "raw" diet.Did you have any issues at all, and did pup have any dislikes at all with this diet?

My pup (iv'e only had him 3 days) is still fairly disinterested in his dry food (Bonnie Puppy by Purina)but gets stuck into his allocated 3 chicken necks a day.

As my earlier post said, I was going to switch him to a fresh diet at around 10-12 months, but.......

Chris

[poodlefan]

Cdenver:

I would be interested to know how you went with raising your pup on a "raw" diet.Did you have any issues at all, and did pup have any dislikes at all with this diet?

Darcy had been used to eating raw chicken necks at his breeder's so I went from there. Essentially I used Dr Billinghurst's "Grow Your Pups With Bones" book as the basis..Chapter 22 is the key chapter

I fed mostly chicken RMBs when Darcy was small but slowly added other bones. These were fed as one meal and 'BARF Patties' made in accordance with Dr B's recipie for the other ones. I was also followed the "non onlead exercise until growth has finished' rule.

Darcy wasn't overly fond of the patties at first so I added a little extra mince and slowly reduced it. He was always mad keen on the RMBS.

He was smaller and leaner than his litter mates when they were growing up (he was the smallest pup in the litter) but has ended up being the largest adult dog.

I certainly don't intend to raise my dogs any other way.

[zayda_asher]

Personally, for a dog with allergies, I'd email Dr Billinghurst or join a BARF List and start from there. As a first step, I'd be eliminating cereals from her diet.

Been on a few BARF lists - have found them to be highly intolerant of anything but what they see as "the one true way" (which is different depending on which list it is)....

The only cereal Zayda has problems with is corn.... she actually is fine with others.... she has more problems with meat sources.... She is currently in prime condition and does well on her diet... I'm not looking at swapping diets to get rid of allergy sources per. se... I'm looking for alternatives to comercial food that are full of preservatives and suspect / unknown ingredients... If I'm feeding her homecooked then I know exactly what she is getting.... that's more what I am after, her allergies are well controlled.

Yes I had heard that Z/D made them lose weight and coat condition too, but have had no probs with Gypsy, she is a stable 14kg, and her coat I think looks better than it did on any other foods which suprised me as well!! If they were losing weight on it I would just feed more of it.

Glad she's doing well on the z/d.... Zayda did well in the sense that she lost her allergen sources, she just stopped gaining weight on it... You can't just feed Zayda more - she's one of those rare creatures that gets full and stops eating - she'd leave food in the bowl if she wasn't hungry any more

Thanks to everyone for info....

Dan

[espinay2]

I have been feeding raw for about 11 years and have found it to be very successful.

What I feed: pretty much anything and everything. I feed a wide variety over time of whatever is available and a good price. More expensive things get fed less often, while cheaper things are more frequent. Chicken frames, lamb necks and beef brisket/offcuts are cheap and easy for me to get. I also buy pork (trotters/tails/bones), rabbit (when reasonable price), boiler ducks and roo tails when I can for a bit of a change as well as the odd bit of 'pet mince' for when I want to mix in other things. They get whole raw sardines or canned fish about once a week and a few eggs about once a week although I am not pedantic about this. I also buy heart, liver, tounge etc from varying animals and any other offal such as brains when I happen to see it. This usually gets fed as an addition to the meal (ie a chunk of liver or a lamb heart etc) several times a week. I rarely, if ever, prepare veggies but they get leftover veggies occasionally. They also get a dollop of yoghurt occasionally. About the only supplement I give is fish oil capsules and that is not necessarily every day.

This type of diet is very flexible and I have no doubt you will be able to adjust what you feed to suit your dog. My dogs do not have a problem with food allergies so I have not had to eliminate anything in particular. My old recently departed dog did have problems with allergies early on in life (she came to me 'pre-raw' - although I always fed at least some raw foods) and once switched to raw had a marked reduction in her problems. Seasonal environmental allergies even became less over the years although it did take years (5 or more) for this to be really noticable.

A question for you - the foods your dog is allergic to - were these tested and identified as allergens in their raw or cooked state. Interestingly, someone/dog can constimes display alleric symptoms to something when it is cooked, but not when it is raw.

Tracy

A breeder feeding raw? Join with the hundreds of others doing the same!: www.yahoogroups.com/groups/rawbreeder

Feeding your new pup raw? Talk to others who are too: www.yahoogroups.com/groups/RawPup

[espinay2]

Forgot I also feed turkey necks.... :-)

Given the No items you have listed, I would personally see no problem putting together a raw diet with a fair amount of variety. No single food is a must have. It all depends on the animal and what you have available. I just happen to have a lot available so tend to feed a wide variety, even though some items may only show up on the menu once every couple of months.

Remember..... balance over time.

[Mel774]

I used to feed

Full meal portion Chicken mince with veggies

Chicken necks/frames (lunch if I was home, otherwise like snacks)

Lamb or beef bones (couple a week but sometimes went without if I couldnt get to the butchers)

Supercoat puppy was always hanging around but rarely eaten. It was something the breeder started so he always just had a bowl sitting around for lunch time snacks but he rarely ate it and when he did he was like a kid on red cordial!!

I now feed

Half portion of Chicken mince OR Roo mince OR steak mince with veggies

Half portion of Royal Canin Labrador Retriever dry food (I haven't settled on a dry yet, this is an experiment!)

A lamb bone OR beef bone OR chicken necks/frame

He also gets a tin or two of sardines a week with a meal. Anyone have suggestions on this diet that doesn't include "feed your dog only dry food" or loading him up with a bunch of suppliments?? I know I ask about this a lot lately but I'm toying with his diet a lot. Everytime I get it right someone throws in another rule that I have never heard about! I'm a little concerned about his weight at the moment too. He's not too overweight, but the ribs are starting to dissapear and has a retriever I have to be so careful. I dont want to put him on a strict diet, I just dont want him to gain weight. He needs fat because he's still growing, but he doesn't need stress on his joints. (He is 8months old)

[ninaandted]

Nina and Ted are on a "barfy" diet mainly because Nina can't eat most of the commercial foods we've tried. she has some kind of irritable bowel problem that has her with runny poos all the time and blood when eating any commercial food - canned or dry. the vet can't isolate what the problem is but we have just experiemented with her diet until we found something that worked. we hadn't tried every brand of food on the market but thought that if it was going to come down to having to be that picky we would just change over to barf anyway!!

they both get a bowl of either chicken necks or wings in the morning. then in the evening they will either get a series of meaty bones that are usually beef or lamb (from the local supermarket) or more chicken necks or wings.

my OH is a bit nervous about feeding chicken frames so we stick to the necks and wings.

four meals out of ten are the vegies meals which are mushed up vegies (we don't have a juicer so we blend ferociously with water), a raw egg and some natural yoghurt. (the egg and the yoghurt are added after the mushing)

every day they will also get either a bowl of cooked pasta or rice or a ripe banana with yoghurt. (so we aren't trully on barf!! :rolleyes: )

they eat everything we give them. they were intially a bit slower on the vegies but not anymore.

we don't currently give supplements - mainly because I haven't got my act together, but both dogs have great coats and are very active. They are both usually lean but not skinny although at the moment Nina seems to be going through a growth phase again and is a little underweight so we are sneaking her extra meat and chicken portions when Ted is distracted!!

[espinay2]

Mel774 you are feeding a diet very similar to the one I fed before I went all raw. Personally, I would ditch the dry food <g>. You wouldnt have to add much more to the diet you are feeding now - throw in some organ meats such as liver/kidney/heart (a small portion a few times a week) and you probably have it reasonably well covered.

Otherwise - go to www.b-naturals.com . Lew has a program for a 'mixed' diet on her website that may give you some ideas.

[zayda_asher]

A question for you - the foods your dog is allergic to - were these tested and identified as allergens in their raw or cooked state. Interestingly, someone/dog can constimes display alleric symptoms to something when it is cooked, but not when it is raw.

Yep: Tested on and allergic to both raw and cooked forms......

I have always fed RMB and naturally started with lamb and beef (most available)......

Dan