Pitbulls Bite Off Teenagers Ear In Savage Attack

[mixeduppup]

Until we get Bogan Specific Legislation we aren't going to get anywhere with this.

That would fix most of the dog problems.

[Salukifan]

Bingo. Plus, bitches in heat usually aren't present at shows anyway.

Dancinbcs you have obviously missed all the evidence that shows that BSL is ineffective in preventing dog attacks, is extremely costly to the taxpayer and wastes enormous amounts of resources that could be spent actually dealing with problem dogs?

It's actually not uncommon. Well not in the Hound ring anyway.

Dog aggression is a serious fault in many hunting breeds. You often see bunches of Whippets of both sexes held by strangers while handlers help run each other's dogs in the ring. I have yet to see a dog aggression incident in the Hound Ring although I"m sure it does happen. I can't comment on other rings.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[Luke GSP]

Luke GSP I will reply to your questions as best I can.

Feel free to wade in with a point of view or answer any of the questions I have raised, alternatively, continue sniping and trying to belittle people, personally, I was trying to engage adults in adult debate/conversation.

Let me make this very simple for you

1, Define gameness

Gameness and dog aggression are two completely seperate things, which is why I stated that you have a real lack of understanding of the APBT. Aggressive dogs can have no gameness at all and non aggressive dogs can be very game. The below link explains it well.

http://stason.org/TULARC/animals/dogs/american-pit-bull-terriers-breed/12-What-exactly-is-gameness.html

The crux of it:

"Gameness in APBT's is a canine virtue that is most akin to the human

virtue of unflagging courage. It is a determination to master any

situation and never back down out of fear. It was developed in

pit bulls by many generations of selective breeding. It is what

allows a pit bull to keep fighting non-stop for two or more hours,

in spite of broken bones, torn muscles, blood loss, dehydration,

and exhaustion. But it is also valued by APBT owners who would never

think of fighting their dogs. It is manifested in the can-do attitude

of pit bulls toward any type of challenge, whether agility competitions,

climbing up trees, or protecting their family against an armed attacker,

etc.

Generally speaking, a game dog is an emotionally stable, easy-going dog,

especially good with kids. Gameness should not be confused with

aggressiveness. There are plenty of aggressive dogs that are not game,

and there are game pit bulls who are not aggressive toward other types

of dogs. Aggressiveness will propell a dog into a fight but will only

sustain him for the first few minutes. Gameness, on the other hand,

will not necessarily make a dog fight-happy; but if the dog has no

other choice but to fight, a game dog will fight until it wins or dies

trying, and will keep going as long as necessary."

2, Do you feel that a "game" dog would be more or less likely to back out of an aggresive situation than a non "game" one

A game dog when FORCED (i.e attacked) will fight back, and fight back hard. That doesn't mean the game dog will start the fight. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. See above.

3,If these breeds are truly no more aggressive or likely to cause severe trauma and damage, whilst in an aggressive state than any other dog why don't you see dog fighters using beagles spaniels or dachshunds?

Because typically they aren't game, so if forced to fight for their lives they will give up from exhaustion or pain. Again I re-iterate that gameness does not mean the dog will start fights, and not all APBT show high levels of gameness or even being game at all. See above.

As you understand the breed so well, please, enlighten us, I can't wait to read your comprehensive understanding/knowledge of how the simple laws of physics do not apply when applied to a 50kg heavy set dog tearing at someone's arm compared to one of (for instance) 10KG

Again, complete and utter lack of understanding of even the basics of the APBT. 50 kilos? Are you serious? Most APBT weigh in the low 20-kilo range. They are a medium sized dog. They are also not heavy-set at all. They are lean dogs that are athletic and agile. Think of Jackie Chan as opposed The Rock.

Of course an APBT is going to do more damage than a 10kg dog in similar circumstances. No one is denying that. The bigger the dog, the more damage it is going to do. Similarly, there are a myriad of breeds that are much, much larger that APBT and would do much more damage in that situation. The APBT also does not have the strongest bite strength of all dogs. Rottweilers, German Shepherds and Mastiffs have much stronger bites.

Again I re-iterate, no APBT or bull breed owner would deny that their dogs have much more potential for damage than dogs of smaller or even similar size. But to single them out as if they cause injuries unlike ALL other dogs is insanity. Any dog larger than them (of which there are an enormous amount of breeds considering they are actually small-medium dogs) can do just as much and worse damage.

If you want proof, check out these links. Warning the second link has some pretty horrific dog attack injury photos:

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/do-certain-types-of-dogs-inflict-injuries-unlike-other-types-of-dogs/

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/photographic-illustration-of-dog-bites

If on the other hand you cannot explain how the laws of physics would not apply in such a scenario, maybe you would like to admit that such an animal has and does posses the ability to cause greater harm than a smaller lighter less muscular dog, oh no, of course, that would mean agreeing with me wouldn't it, so that won't happen.

Your snarky comment here looks pretty silly now, doesn't it? I agree 100% in the laws of physics and I also agree that smaller and less muscular dogs are not going to cause as much damage in identical situations (that's not to say in different situations they can't cause huge damage. You only have to look at the fatality list to see small dogs killing babies). You seem to have no idea that the APBT is a small - medium dog that generally weighs 25kg and under, and a vast amount of breeds are much bigger/stronger, and therefore laws of physics means they are able to do just as much if not more damage.

Please be very clear on this:

I am not saying that any dog has more or less ability to become aggressive, what I am saying is that in the event of them becoming so, some types of dogs are (sadly) far more effective at it!

So we're in agreeance then. APBT can do lots of damage if they attack. Owners must be aware of this and contain and manage their dogs appropriately. Similarly, all the breeds that are bigger than them can also do lots (if not more) damage when they attack, and their owners must contain and manage their dogs appropriately. Small dog owners shouldn't underestimate their dogs ability to cause injury in the right circumstances either.

I believe that the breed standard allows for males between 45 and 75 pounds 20-35kg so not sure where you get "most dogs are 25kg and under" so assuming that most pet dogs are overweight a show framed dog that would be 35kg could easily be 40 to 50 if allowed.

So please now read your own definition of gameness, keep in mind that a dogs version of being "forced" in to a fight is not the same as a humans, dogs can and will feel forced fight for resources they see as their own such as food, territory, a bitch on heat or possibly misreading a humans actions as aggressive towards its owner. And then if reacting in an aggressive manner a "game dog will fight until it wins or dies trying, and will keep going as long as necessary." And that gameness was "developed in

pit bulls by many generations of selective breeding." Hence more likely to have the trait than other breeds

Now accept that nobody and I mean NOBODY can guarantee 100% that they can contain their animal 100% of the time. Dogs are dogs and humans are humans and sadly humans make mistakes so no one can guarantee their animal will always be contained.

Now honestly tell me that you think that it is fine for anyone to promote such an animal as no more dangerous than any other dog. Note, I did not say aggressive (I have not said that) I have said better equipped and capable of causing severe trauma in an aggressive situation.

This is what I am talking about, apbt, am staff and bull breed supporters are so desperate to promote the positive that they do not realise that they are actually encouraging people to mismanage the breeds as they are harmless "nanny" dogs, what is there to manage!

Until bull breed breeders and owners are 100% honest with themselves and the public about the potential within their dogs and promote that as widely as the positive, sad stories like this one will continue to blacken the horizon.

[Dame Aussie]

I have never in my life seen a Pitbull that was 40 or 50kgs, if it was, it would be the most obese dog I've ever seen and wouldn't be able to do much more than wobble at someone.

[Rebanne]

It could work like the one for greyhounds who pass the test to be allowed in public without a muzzle and allow those that claim their Pitbull is no threat to anyone or any other animal to prove it.

umm greyhounds are nothing like a bull breed and Australia is one of only 2 countries in the whole world that require greyhounds to be muzzled. Greyhounds who are not cat safe can pass.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there tests now for greys and green collared ones (I think it's green) can be walked without a muzzle?

yes there are but as I said non cat safe dogs can and do pass. A greyhound is nothing like a bull breed in temperament. Countries world wide have problems with "pitbulls" not with greyhounds, even though greyhounds have got loose and killed other dogs in the past. Greyhounds, in general, get on fine with other dogs because they have always had to, either in history when they hunted as part of a pack, or more recently on the race track. Fighters are of no use to anyone and usually destroyed. They are not bred from.

[BlackJaq]

I don't think a dog needs to be equipped with "gameness" to kill somebody. One single bite in the right spot will make you bleed to death within minutes. Dogs do not need overly strong jaws to deliver such a bite. Somebody posted a link with graphic dog bite pictures which showed a dachshund's fatal bite next to a pitbull's fatal bite on two separate peoples necks and they looked nearly identical.

A dachshund is hardly a large or strong dog by most peoples definitions.

[Rebanne]

Bingo. Plus, bitches in heat usually aren't present at shows anyway.

yes they are. Lots of them. I've shown my bitch in season and I'm not the lone ranger.

[Salukifan]

I have never in my life seen a Pitbull that was 40 or 50kgs, if it was, it would be the most obese dog I've ever seen and wouldn't be able to do much more than wobble at someone.

It would be the same weight as a Rhodesian Ridgeback

[BlackJaq]

I have to agree on the bitches on heat being shown. It is fairly common.

I do however maintain my position that handlers are controlling their dogs to avoid fights. Let loose I doubt the picture would be the same.

[Dame Aussie]

I have never in my life seen a Pitbull that was 40 or 50kgs, if it was, it would be the most obese dog I've ever seen and wouldn't be able to do much more than wobble at someone.

It would be the same weight as a Rhodesian Ridgeback

Exactly! My Anatolian x is 45kgs!

[Rebanne]

It could work like the one for greyhounds who pass the test to be allowed in public without a muzzle and allow those that claim their Pitbull is no threat to anyone or any other animal to prove it.

umm greyhounds are nothing like a bull breed and Australia is one of only 2 countries in the whole world that require greyhounds to be muzzled. Greyhounds who are not cat safe can pass.

I think that entire post was pretty badly informed. Why should bull breeds have to pass a character test but not other breeds that are high (or higher) on the list of offenders like GSDs, Rotts, Labs and pretty much any other medium to large breed that can inflict serious damage on people and animals? There are bunches of breeds that have guarding tendencies or high prey drive, including Border Collies. Why should they be exempt?

I agree, why should my greyhounds have to be muzzled while the nasty little jack russell down the street that chases school kids out into the street isn't. I have always thought one in all in. No exceptions. In fact I no longer walk my dogs around the street due to the many uncontrolled dogs that just love to rush(attack) yours. Councils should get tougher and enforce the laws they have and start hitting these people where it hurts, in their hip pocket.

[Salukifan]

I have to agree on the bitches on heat being shown. It is fairly common.

I do however maintain my position that handlers are controlling their dogs to avoid fights. Let loose I doubt the picture would be the same.

Let loose, I'd say the Whippet zoomies could be lethal to bystanders. My dog warms up for the ring by wrestling his half brother or it's owners Bedlington Terrier. All are entire adolescent males.

Some dogs simply aren't that interested in fighting. That's how they've been selectively bred. You can't have two hyper aroused coursing dogs let loose on prey to have them turn on each other before OR after catching it.

Ditto scent hounds - bred to run as a pack of entire dogs.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[Luke GSP]

I have never in my life seen a Pitbull that was 40 or 50kgs, if it was, it would be the most obese dog I've ever seen and wouldn't be able to do much more than wobble at someone.

It would be the same weight as a Rhodesian Ridgeback

Don't shoot the messenger, the standard says 25-35kg, I've never seen an obese show dog hence if as a standard it can weigh 35kg are you honestly saying that it couldn't waeigh 40-50 if allowed to become overweight much like the majority of pet dogs (sadly) or are we saying that these irresponsible, bogan nair do well owners may not train or manage their dogs in any other way but their weight! :-)

[Salukifan]

Don't shoot the messenger, the standard says 25-35kg, I've never seen an obese show dog hence if as a standard it can weigh 35kg are you honestly saying that it couldn't waeigh 40-50 if allowed to become overweight much like the majority of pet dogs (sadly) or are we saying that these irresponsible, bogan nair do well owners may not train or manage their dogs in any other way but their weight! :-)

I'd be far more inclined to suggest that the supposed "pitbull" was crossbred.

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Some of the crap in this thread beggars belief, particularly because it's coming from 'dog' people. Glad to see some voices of reason.

Anyone observed dogs in the wild? Can anyone that hasn't draw on their education and good sense to reflect on their nature? These dogs all have a few things in common - they're territorial, opportunistic, intelligent pack animals who will instinctively take down anything they think themselves capable - prey drive. When they pick off a cute little wallaby as it's hopping along in peace in the lovely sunshine minding it's own business, they do it not because they're K9 manifestations of comic book villians, but because that's part of a dogs essence.

This essence exists in every domestic breed from Shihtzus through Wolf Hounds. Selective breeding of domestic dogs is like adjusting an old malfunctioning graphic equaliser, output cannot be controlled precisely, and the essence of the system cannot change, but with prudence and persistence the output can trend toward the balance we want within the parameters of the system, sans the omnipresent probability of throwbacks.

When particular contemporary breeds have histories in which there occurred amplification of qualities some might not consider desirable, they'd benefit from understanding that, as explained, breeding working dogs successfully requires diligence, you cannot just stop testing and selecting discriminately and reasonably expect to have a full stock of useful dogs in 20 generations time. Some individuals of given non working breeds may or may not demonstrate drives of their working ancestors to the same extent, but it's a long way from a given, and that essence common to most dogs irrespective of breed will always be there.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Lo Pan

[BlackJaq]

I have to agree on the bitches on heat being shown. It is fairly common.

I do however maintain my position that handlers are controlling their dogs to avoid fights. Let loose I doubt the picture would be the same.

Let loose, I'd say the Whippet zoomies could be lethal to bystanders. My dog warms up for the ring by wrestling his half brother or it's owners Bedlington Terrier. All are entire adolescent males.

Some dogs simply aren't that interested in fighting. That's how they've been selectively bred. You can't have two hyper aroused coursing dogs let loose on prey to have them turn on each other before OR after catching it.

Ditto scent hounds - bred to run as a pack of entire dogs.

Then maybe irresponsible owners of other breeds should be given a safer breed of dog, like Whippets or other coursing hounds. That should drastically reduce dog bite incidents. Cat fatalities shall be ignored in this scenario.

Edited November 1, 2012 by BlackJaq

[Salukifan]

Then maybe irresponsible owners of other breeds should be given a safer breed of dog, like Whippets or other coursing hounds. That should drastically reduce dog bite incidents. Cat fatalities shall be ignored in this scenario.

Or "companion" breeds. I do genuinely believe that some breeds are entirely unsuitable for novice or ignorant owners.

Maybe it should be like motor cycles. You have to cut your teeth on a less powerful one before you can be licensed for the big boys.

[BlackJaq]

I agree with licensing. It would be in the best interest of all dogs. So many people get a dog because their backyard looks empty and they used to have one living on a chain next to the shed when they wee little. 99% of Joe Public dog owners have no clue about dogs. None.

Edited November 1, 2012 by BlackJaq

[Salukifan]

I agree with licensing. It would be in the best interest of all dogs. So many people get a dog because their backyard looks empty and they used to have one living on a chain next to the shed when they wee little. 99% of Joe Public dog owners have no clue about dogs. None.

Me too. It could ensure that owners have to pass at least a basic test of knowledge before being allowed to own an animal.

I've hit cases of ignorance about basic dog husbandry that were nothing short of gobsmacking.

[Luke GSP]

I don't think a dog needs to be equipped with "gameness" to kill somebody. One single bite in the right spot will make you bleed to death within minutes. Dogs do not need overly strong jaws to deliver such a bite. Somebody posted a link with graphic dog bite pictures which showed a dachshund's fatal bite next to a pitbull's fatal bite on two separate peoples necks and they looked nearly identical.

A dachshund is hardly a large or strong dog by most peoples definitions.

No they are not large or strong, but you also see far less horrific injuries and deaths caused by small dogs biting in the "right place" than you do large/muscular dogs. You also don't hear of many people saying that dachshunds are fine as long as they are "managed" correctly.

In honesty, if you had to take your chances with a dachshund or a bull breed in full flight, which would you reckon you'd have the best chance with?

And that kind of statement is exactly what I am talking about, lets promote the idea that a bull breed poses no greater possible harm than a dachshund and then when the ill informed owner fails to treat the breed with the respect that it deserves and it mauls someone, condem them for not "managing" the breed correctly!