Are You Serious Jo Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I don't believe a cat will do well on a vegan diet. Cats need meat to thrive. If a cat is self sufficent it will always choose to hunt for fresh meat, it will not scrounge for garbage like a dog will. A dog will "survive" on just about any crap. I agree with cats needing meat to thrive but they will scavenge if they have to. I did a project where I analysed the gut contents of cats living at one of the dumps in a town between Brisbane and Toowoomba. Kitties were dispatched for me and I opened their guts to find glass, alfoil, plastic, rocks, alongside native marsupials, reptiles, frogs and birds and some feral mice. I was surprised at the garbage they did eat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckandsteve Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 If vegan dogs eat their own poo, are they still eating animal products? Technically? Yes I'd say so :laugh: Yeh, that was my thought too :laugh: I know your trying to be funny so dont take this the wrong way. These are the comments that just make vegans go, im talking to close minded fools. Degrades what is for vegans an important topic. You dont need to agree with vegans but you can show a certain amount of understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 If wolves and dogs are so different, what should a wolf/dogx eat? Or a Dingo? Or a dingo/dogx? Or a Czechoslovakian wolfdog or saarloos wolfhound who had wolves used in their creation? Or the Australian cattle dog which had the dingo used in its creation? Where do you draw the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) If vegan dogs eat their own poo, are they still eating animal products? Technically? Yes I'd say so :laugh: Yeh, that was my thought too :laugh: I know your trying to be funny so dont take this the wrong way. These are the comments that just make vegans go, im talking to close minded fools. Degrades what is for vegans an important topic. You dont need to agree with vegans but you can show a certain amount of understanding. Fyi - I'm vegetarian. Your comment is the type that gives vegans the name of being closed minded, because you accuse everyone who isn't you of being a fool. And I'll take it as it was intended - as an insult. Edited October 31, 2012 by minimax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I don't believe a cat will do well on a vegan diet. Cats need meat to thrive. If a cat is self sufficent it will always choose to hunt for fresh meat, it will not scrounge for garbage like a dog will. A dog will "survive" on just about any crap. I agree with cats needing meat to thrive but they will scavenge if they have to. I did a project where I analysed the gut contents of cats living at one of the dumps in a town between Brisbane and Toowoomba. Kitties were dispatched for me and I opened their guts to find glass, alfoil, plastic, rocks, alongside native marsupials, reptiles, frogs and birds and some feral mice. I was surprised at the garbage they did eat. WOW! Cats are more like people than I thought. As a species I think people definitely eat the most diversity (and garbage) than any other, althought hopefully not glass, alfoil, plastic, rocks etc. However, there are some disorders where people do eat weird types of stuff such as glass, charcoal, wood -Pica. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 espinay, whilst I would agree that wolves and dogs have a number of similarities they are definitely separate species - since about 100,000 years ago. Current dogs are thought to have been domesticated about 19,000 years ago (after an earlier failed attempt about 30,000 ya) As a zoologist I consider them the same species, and the taxonomy in most common usage does too We must be reading different literature :laugh: The DNA studies I've read indicate delineation 100,000 years ago but put domestication at 10,000 years. Can you PM me some authors please as I would like to read further. Thanks! Aw man, you mean I can't just talk crap on the internet without sources? Dammit :p :laugh:On my lunchbreak so don't have my referencing skills up to snuff, but - http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2011/08/110819-dogs-wolves-russia-domestication-animals-science-evolution/ Under the Biological Species Concept dogs and wolves fail at the first hurdle, by gettin' busy and having fertile pups :) Edit - this looks interesting (but inconclusive) too - http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/05/15/1203005109 Of course you can...it's what the internet is for! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 These cats weren't fully feral, they were in the category that still relies on people for some of their sustenance but they weren't owned or pets, can't remember what the term is now. I guess when you are hungry you'll eat anything even if it means taking in rubbish as well. Now I've also had a flashback to undergrad and the uninteresting way that all the methods of deciding species were lectured at us I'm on the dogs and wolves are the same species side though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckandsteve Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 If vegan dogs eat their own poo, are they still eating animal products? Technically? Yes I'd say so :laugh: Yeh, that was my thought too :laugh: I know your trying to be funny so dont take this the wrong way. These are the comments that just make vegans go, im talking to close minded fools. Degrades what is for vegans an important topic. You dont need to agree with vegans but you can show a certain amount of understanding. Not for not being vegan, but for suggesting a dog eating poo makes it not vegan, the point is to not hurt anything not to live to rules with no purpose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 These cats weren't fully feral, they were in the category that still relies on people for some of their sustenance but they weren't owned or pets, can't remember what the term is now. I guess when you are hungry you'll eat anything even if it means taking in rubbish as well. Now I've also had a flashback to undergrad and the uninteresting way that all the methods of deciding species were lectured at us I'm on the dogs and wolves are the same species side though. I believe their DNA is identical. That's the amazing part...whether it's my German Shepherd or my Cavaliers...all from teh same genus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Some people don't believe it though, fools :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Last thing I read the genetic difference between dogs and wolves was about 0.01%? My dim memory also remembers the fun fact that this diversity is about the same as that between breeds? I don't know I'll have to wait for weasels to out nerd me on that one :laugh: Either way as far as I'm aware they've been considered the same species for ages, I think they made dogs a subspecies but that was just to make people feel better rather than any significant differentiation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamboo Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Thanks for the welcomes. No problem LizT, I get what you mean and have ordered a flame suit from ebay......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Wolves and dogs, different subspecies but definitely the same species. Off topic but I wonder if the domesticated types of Silver Foxes have yet to be classified as a separate subspecies of Fox... Hmm Google Scholar is my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felix Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Wolves and dogs, different subspecies but definitely the same species. Off topic but I wonder if the domesticated types of Silver Foxes have yet to be classified as a separate subspecies of Fox... Hmm Google Scholar is my friend. Silver fox is the very same species as red fox. Not subspecies, but a form. Something like a panther and black panther, same species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Donna I'm just curious as to what you find so great about an ingredient list like this? All ingredients are GMO free and human grade; organic where possible. Full fat soya, corn gluten, corn, rice, flaxmeal, yeast, brewer’s yeast, sunflower and soy oil (cold pressed organic), vital amino acids, vitamins and minerals, natural enzymes, spirillina, kelp, yucca extract, Omega 3 and Omega 6, Taurine, LCarnitine, Amylase, vegetarian chicken flavour, Prebiotic, Aa, DHA and EPA. compared to something like BARF or Vets All Natural diets? I'm also wondering what dyscrasia exactly you found without animal protein like eggs in the diet? I don't think I said I found it great, I said I prefered it to the ingredient list and contents of commercial dog food. Barf or commercial comes from the same contaminated animals. I said raw egg can cause blood dyscrasia's which s why we cook them, the biggest issue is raw egg white binds to biotin . Biotin is necessary for cell growth, the production of fatty acids, and the metabolism of fats and amino acids. It plays a role in the citric acid cycle, which is the process by which biochemical energy is generated during aerobic respiration. Biotin not only assists in various metabolic reactions, but also helps to transfer carbon dioxide. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I don't think I said I found it great, I said I prefered it to the ingredient list and contents of commercial dog food. Barf or commercial comes from the same contaminated animals.I said raw egg can cause blood dyscrasia's which s why we cook them, the biggest issue is raw egg white binds to biotin . Biotin is necessary for cell growth, the production of fatty acids, and the metabolism of fats and amino acids. It plays a role in the citric acid cycle, which is the process by which biochemical energy is generated during aerobic respiration. Biotin not only assists in various metabolic reactions, but also helps to transfer carbon dioxide. No I understand metabolism and digestion, it was your bracketing of the word cooked that led me down a different path as to what you meant. As for contaminated animals I'm not understanding really your point as to not feeding a commercial dry food or making your own raw diet from animals you know have been humanely dispatched. Basically it's just coming down to the fact you dont like animal products in your house or is it a genuine health choice for your dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I've heard about not feeding raw egg whites to dogs, but I wonder how many you'd have to feed for it to become a problem. I would've imagined they'd have to eat alot. I give my dogs a raw egg each occasionally as a treat. They love them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I've heard about not feeding raw egg whites to dogs, but I wonder how many you'd have to feed for it to become a problem. I would've imagined they'd have to eat alot. I give my dogs a raw egg each occasionally as a treat. They love them. Feeding whole eggs negates the biotin issue as the yolks contain so much of it that what is bound by the whites is irrelevant. So yes feeding just egg whites and no yolk eventually becomes a problem. Donna- just wondering where you found the info re blood dyscrasia and eggs? Just out of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) The only study where raw egg whites have been shown to be an issue is when they were fed without yolks as part of an already low biotin diet. From that study the old wives tale that 'raw eggs are bad' developed via Chinese whispers with no reference back to that one original study!!! There are no studies showing issues with feeding whole raw eggs. Edited October 31, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I don't believe a cat will do well on a vegan diet. Cats need meat to thrive. If a cat is self sufficent it will always choose to hunt for fresh meat, it will not scrounge for garbage like a dog will. A dog will "survive" on just about any crap. I agree with cats needing meat to thrive but they will scavenge if they have to. I did a project where I analysed the gut contents of cats living at one of the dumps in a town between Brisbane and Toowoomba. Kitties were dispatched for me and I opened their guts to find glass, alfoil, plastic, rocks, alongside native marsupials, reptiles, frogs and birds and some feral mice. I was surprised at the garbage they did eat. WOW! Cats are more like people than I thought. As a species I think people definitely eat the most diversity (and garbage) than any other, althought hopefully not glass, alfoil, plastic, rocks etc. However, there are some disorders where people do eat weird types of stuff such as glass, charcoal, wood -Pica. to me it most likley means there was food attached to the foil, glass, plastic and as the cats couldn't get it off and are usually straving they ate the lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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