LizT Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I believe killing is only ok for survival. Humans in the western world no longer need to eat meat so i dont beliee in killing anything for food. Certainly not for clothes or make up etc I have already decided my kids will be vegan because there is no good reason for them to not be. IMHO no one has provided no one has provided a good reason on here for dogs to eat meat. I dont count because thats what nature intended a reason. I think its sad your kids don't get to chose themselves Why? Most kids eat what their parents want them to eat. Free choice comes when you leave home. Because becoming a Vegan is a personal choice and not one your parents should make for you. I believe children should be free to sample all foods and decide what is palatable to them. I'm not sure how well it would be policed in a school ground anyway with children swapping lunches, getting tuckshop, having sleepovers. Isn't choosing to feed meat forcing your choice on children? Part of being a parent is making decisions on behalf of our children and they will reflect our own beliefs in all areas. I have never énforced by choice outside of the home, I have found that beyond some curiousity and experimentation the children have reached their own conclusion. Perhaps it is easier as we live in area where vego/vegan is not uncommon? I think giving your children all foods of the world and letting them decide, along with the education behind it, is the best way of letting them chose what path they take. I'd be devastated if my first taste of a steak wasn't until I was an adult. Obviously children follow their parents in many ways so if you live a strict vegan life, then no doubt they will chose to follow that path too but I believe they should be able to make that choice themselves. Not as simple as it sounds...nor easily doable. it's like Religion, a child will naturally have the Religious upbringing it's parents choose it to have from the onset. If it chooses to change religions as an adult that is up to them, it's rare though, as these things become ingrained. One raises one kids with what one believes to be their best interests, whether the majority believe it to be so or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Who says dogs can't choose? If you put a bowl of vegan food down and bowl of normal dog food down and your dog eats the normal dog food and refuses to eat the vegan food I would say that's a choice. My dog choose to eat the crappy soy food. :) My dogs would think i'd cut their legs off if they never got meat or bones again. They most certainly are not vegan dogs. Amber doesn't seem fussed. She gets fed lots and that is all she cares about. She gets her soy food and Poppy gets chicken necks. Amber never worries that she hasn't got the necks. The only time it is an issue is when other people want to give her a treat at say dog club and I have to say no. Some of them use cheese as treats and that is ok. At the vets today she couldn't have a liver treat but was happy with a pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 A friend of my parents has a small cattle property. He has a fully licensed, small slaughterhouse (the health hoops you have to jump through are considerable). He drives the cattle up there, and kills and dresses them himself. His neighbours also use him. The cattle are never transported (a major issue for me). I don't have an issue with this style of livestock raising and my parents swear his meat TASTE'S better. My personal view is that if more people were aware of how livestock animals were raised and treated for mass food production, they'd be more discerning about where their meat came from. Then again, the cost is all important for some. I DETEST intensive animal farming in a major way. It is WRONG. End of Sermon. this is something I do struggle with, and I tend to try not to think about it, but it is a source of guilt for me. I've been to slaughter yards and sale yards. I've seen frightened injured animals put up for sale and know where they're headed. Who knows, maybe this thread will be the turning point for me. I saw online yesterday a chook workshop coming up, it covers poultry care and also killing and dressing the fowl for the table. An intensive pig farm visit is a nightmare I will never forget. Thank God they banned sow stalls. As an animal welfare scientist I can tell you it ain't that simple. Not that I like sow stalls personally or caged hens for that matter. And they're not banned everywhere for all of gestation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Wolves and dogs are both canis lupus .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labradork Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) Sorry, I stuffed up with the quotes :laugh: Edited October 31, 2012 by Labradork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 espinay, whilst I would agree that wolves and dogs have a number of similarities they are definitely separate species - since about 100,000 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantis Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 With all due respect to Vegans I don't actually understand the thought process. I believe in the circle of life, meat is meant to be eaten and killed. Look at Africa, nature is cruel. What would we do without any culling/killing of these meat sources? I don't like the thought that animals have to die but what would we do with them all? Stop breeding them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I stand corrected re my chickens - quite right they aren't vegetarian because I do allow them to free range daily so they would be finding their own bugs, should have thought before typing. However I don't feed any pelleted feed to them due to unwanted ingredients. Past chickens have lived lifespans well over 10 years, still laying the occasional egg, so I don't believe they were deprived. Sorry if this topic is not considered suitable for a first post - I certainly have tried to be polite and respectful, and absolutely disagree with evangelical style vego/vegan preaching. As stated in my post it is a topic I feel strongly. Surely it is normal to want to be able to respond in that case? I have actually been here before briefly, under Elysia, until my registration mysteriously stopped allowing me to reply or start a new topic. Since then I have been lurking, and hadn't got around to reregistering. I also agree with the observation that several people have made regards raising and killing their own meat - a much more respectful and humane alternative. It doesn't matter what you write as your first post. You obviously felt compelled to respond because you're passionate about your beliefs. I'm not sure what Liz T meant by that comment It made me feel a bit paranoid actually - I feel like going back and having a look at my first post now :laugh: Actually I think I followed and read a fair bit of threads before I posted my first comment too! Can't remember what it was but I certainly skipped the "meet n greet". My comment wasn't meant to be provocative, just noticed the number 1 at 'posts' and new name 'tis all. But as a heads up, "off the cuff" comments (like mine) can often get miss interpretted here on DOL. Have you been fitted for you "Flame suit" yet? May you never need it. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 espinay, whilst I would agree that wolves and dogs have a number of similarities they are definitely separate species - since about 100,000 years ago. Current dogs are thought to have been domesticated about 19,000 years ago (after an earlier failed attempt about 30,000 ya) As a zoologist I consider them the same species, and the taxonomy in most common usage does too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) wrong thread Edited October 31, 2012 by mixeduppup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 espinay, whilst I would agree that wolves and dogs have a number of similarities they are definitely separate species - since about 100,000 years ago. Current dogs are thought to have been domesticated about 19,000 years ago (after an earlier failed attempt about 30,000 ya) As a zoologist I consider them the same species, and the taxonomy in most common usage does too We must be reading different literature :laugh: The DNA studies I've read indicate delineation 100,000 years ago but put domestication at 10,000 years. Can you PM me some authors please as I would like to read further. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labradork Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Who says dogs can't choose? If you put a bowl of vegan food down and bowl of normal dog food down and your dog eats the normal dog food and refuses to eat the vegan food I would say that's a choice. Sorry, I wasn't responding to you directly earlier. My quotes have been stuffing up because my Internet connection is really slow. Forget it, I know what I mean. I can't be bothered :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckandsteve Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Just so you know, I'm calling them the monsters and the trash of their breed because people have created them and left them no choice but to become what they are. Occasionally monsters are born but mostly they are raised. Sorry what?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Labradork Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I stand corrected re my chickens - quite right they aren't vegetarian because I do allow them to free range daily so they would be finding their own bugs, should have thought before typing. However I don't feed any pelleted feed to them due to unwanted ingredients. Past chickens have lived lifespans well over 10 years, still laying the occasional egg, so I don't believe they were deprived. Sorry if this topic is not considered suitable for a first post - I certainly have tried to be polite and respectful, and absolutely disagree with evangelical style vego/vegan preaching. As stated in my post it is a topic I feel strongly. Surely it is normal to want to be able to respond in that case? I have actually been here before briefly, under Elysia, until my registration mysteriously stopped allowing me to reply or start a new topic. Since then I have been lurking, and hadn't got around to reregistering. I also agree with the observation that several people have made regards raising and killing their own meat - a much more respectful and humane alternative. It doesn't matter what you write as your first post. You obviously felt compelled to respond because you're passionate about your beliefs. I'm not sure what Liz T meant by that comment It made me feel a bit paranoid actually - I feel like going back and having a look at my first post now :laugh: Actually I think I followed and read a fair bit of threads before I posted my first comment too! Can't remember what it was but I certainly skipped the "meet n greet". My comment wasn't meant to be provocative, just noticed the number 1 at 'posts' and new name 'tis all. But as a heads up, "off the cuff" comments (like mine) can often get miss interpretted here on DOL. Have you been fitted for you "Flame suit" yet? May you never need it. :) Hi Liz T, No worries :) I tried to reply to your earlier post (with the flower). Thanks, I get where you're coming from now :) My connection is reallly slow and my quotes are stuffing up. I'm going to have to log off now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Just so you know, I'm calling them the monsters and the trash of their breed because people have created them and left them no choice but to become what they are. Occasionally monsters are born but mostly they are raised. Sorry what?? Wrong thread lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) espinay, whilst I would agree that wolves and dogs have a number of similarities they are definitely separate species - since about 100,000 years ago. Current dogs are thought to have been domesticated about 19,000 years ago (after an earlier failed attempt about 30,000 ya) As a zoologist I consider them the same species, and the taxonomy in most common usage does too We must be reading different literature :laugh: The DNA studies I've read indicate delineation 100,000 years ago but put domestication at 10,000 years. Can you PM me some authors please as I would like to read further. Thanks! Aw man, you mean I can't just talk crap on the internet without sources? Dammit :p :laugh: On my lunchbreak so don't have my referencing skills up to snuff, but - http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2011/08/110819-dogs-wolves-russia-domestication-animals-science-evolution/ Under the Biological Species Concept dogs and wolves fail at the first hurdle, by gettin' busy and having fertile pups :) Edit - this looks interesting (but inconclusive) too - http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/05/15/1203005109 Edited October 31, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mantis Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 The point is children are able to make that choice at some point in their lives; dogs can't. A set of moral boundaries is an important part of parenting. If those boundaries include teaching your child that eating animals is wrong then who are we to comment? I respect the right of parents to raise their kids as vest they see fit. Being a vegan isn't against the law My rotten parents forced me to eat tripe, liver, broccoli & brussell sprouts, even though they knew they made me feel sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 If vegan dogs eat their own poo, are they still eating animal products? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 If vegan dogs eat their own poo, are they still eating animal products? Technically? Yes I'd say so :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 (edited) If vegan dogs eat their own poo, are they still eating animal products? Technically? Yes I'd say so :laugh: Yeh, that was my thought too :laugh: Edited October 31, 2012 by minimax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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