Vegan Pets?

[LisaCC]

Oh and I've noticed most people don't look past the abstract/summaries of articles.

I have ADHD - I save my limited attention span for topics that interest me :laugh:

Plus the abstract is meant to tell you the basics anyways, to let you know if you're interested in reading more. I wasn't. So I didn't.

Heres a hint: If you don't want to read the whole of a study, look at the last paragraph of the results and always look at the Discussion before you close it! They often have the most interesting parts that aren't in the Abstract.

[JulesP]

Sorry, JulesP, I missed your post somehow.

So your dog finds it easy to process vegetables? How do you keep the diet balanced (nutritional supplements or through variety), and have you bought commercial vegan pet food? If she previously ate meat, has she been more or less the same since introducing the diet? I'd be interested to know, if you're willing to elaborate. :)

EDIT: and when you say "vego", do you mean vegetarian or vegan?

JulesP's dog has liver shunts. If she ate a "normal" dog diet my understanding is that she'd have seizures and could die as a result.

I'm sorry to hear that. Is that something dogs are born with? I asked the questions because I thought the problem may have occurred after having eaten a normal diet without issues for some period of time. Obviously, if there's a medical reason for the diet, then the vegan or vegetarian diet is going to result in a far more positive and healthy animal. But if that medical problem occurred after having eaten a "normal" diet without issue - there lies the comparison I'm interested in. I shouldn't assume, though.

Yes she was born with the condition. Well she wasn't born with the shunts but they developed because of a problem with her liver that she was born with.

I had issues with her eating normal food from the beginning. The better the quality of the kibble, the worse the problems got. She actually refused to eat the super premium foods (Artemis, Canidae, Evo). She would eat a bit of the lower protein foods. Totally refused to eat Barf patties, mince, Natures Gift tinned or VAN. I put her on RAW and she got really sick.

She is vegetarian as she can eat egg whites. She got put on Hills L/D and meds. The Hills L/D has egg and soy protein in it, plus some chicken fat. Last time I gave her a lamp flap she had a seizure. I also used a drink for sick kids, think that was soy based rather than whey based.

So yes she always had issues with a 'normal' diet. She loves her L/D and after having a dog refusing to eat that is great to watch.

I buy vego biscuits for her.

I looked at the Vegan pet food but wasn't happy with the ingredients. The problem was either too much sodium or ingredients that were too high in purine.

So whilst I wouldn't particularly go and feed a normal dog a vego/vegan diet I think they would do ok on it as long as it was good quality, with soy or egg to replace the meat. A bowl of veggies wouldn't do obviously!

Her teeth are great btw.

[Ruin Maniac]

Sorry, JulesP, I missed your post somehow.

So your dog finds it easy to process vegetables? How do you keep the diet balanced (nutritional supplements or through variety), and have you bought commercial vegan pet food? If she previously ate meat, has she been more or less the same since introducing the diet? I'd be interested to know, if you're willing to elaborate. :)

EDIT: and when you say "vego", do you mean vegetarian or vegan?

JulesP's dog has liver shunts. If she ate a "normal" dog diet my understanding is that she'd have seizures and could die as a result.

I'm sorry to hear that. Is that something dogs are born with? I asked the questions because I thought the problem may have occurred after having eaten a normal diet without issues for some period of time. Obviously, if there's a medical reason for the diet, then the vegan or vegetarian diet is going to result in a far more positive and healthy animal. But if that medical problem occurred after having eaten a "normal" diet without issue - there lies the comparison I'm interested in. I shouldn't assume, though.

Yes she was born with the condition. Well she wasn't born with the shunts but they developed because of a problem with her liver that she was born with.

I had issues with her eating normal food from the beginning. The better the quality of the kibble, the worse the problems got. She actually refused to eat the super premium foods (Artemis, Canidae, Evo). She would eat a bit of the lower protein foods. Totally refused to eat Barf patties, mince, Natures Gift tinned or VAN. I put her on RAW and she got really sick.

She is vegetarian as she can eat egg whites. She got put on Hills L/D and meds. The Hills L/D has egg and soy protein in it, plus some chicken fat. Last time I gave her a lamp flap she had a seizure. I also used a drink for sick kids, think that was soy based rather than whey based.

So yes she always had issues with a 'normal' diet. She loves her L/D and after having a dog refusing to eat that is great to watch.

I buy vego biscuits for her.

I looked at the Vegan pet food but wasn't happy with the ingredients. The problem was either too much sodium or ingredients that were too high in purine.

So whilst I wouldn't particularly go and feed a normal dog a vego/vegan diet I think they would do ok on it as long as it was good quality, with soy or egg to replace the meat. A bowl of veggies wouldn't do obviously!

Her teeth are great btw.

Thank you for replying. This is precisely the kind of reply I was hoping to read, so I appreciate the detail :)

Her sensitivity sounds extreme, it must have been very frustrating to see a dog rejecting food like that. But I'm glad to hear you were able to construct a diet that's suited to her around her liver shunts, and also very interested regarding the information about vegan product ingredients. I wonder if that's specifically a problem with products available here or if it's consistent across the board.

I would also wonder, since her diet is complimented by egg white and chicken fat (I'm guessing her coat looks lovely), if there are suitable non-animal alternatives out there?

[JulesP]

Thank you for replying. This is precisely the kind of reply I was hoping to read, so I appreciate the detail :)

Her sensitivity sounds extreme, it must have been very frustrating to see a dog rejecting food like that. But I'm glad to hear you were able to construct a diet that's suited to her around her liver shunts, and also very interested regarding the information about vegan product ingredients. I wonder if that's specifically a problem with products available here or if it's consistent across the board.

I would also wonder, since her diet is complimented by egg white and chicken fat (I'm guessing her coat looks lovely), if there are suitable non-animal alternatives out there?

Here is an example of an overseas vegan dog food - http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/product.aspx?ProductID=18&product=Vegetarian+Dry+Dog+Formula

And another one - http://www.avodermnatural.com/Dog_Foods/vegetarian13oz_can.htm

She could have veggie oils. Without the egg white you are really only left with soy and other veggie protein.

[Donna]

Hi, we are vegan and choose to feed vegan dog biscuits to our dogs due to the poor quality of ingredients in commercial dog kibble. Our guys are fit, healthy and well. As far as I understand dogs are scavenging omnivores even if anatomically they are carnivores. Cats are obligate carnivores and require higher levels of Taurine which is why a dog can eat cat food and not vice versa. In saying that we have two cats that help themselves to soy based products regularly but thats their choice. Proteins are nothing more than chains of amino acids, many are manufactured in the body and excessive levels of proteins can lead to renal failure. Vegan dog biscuits helped our boy with his pancreatitis avoiding the use of medication and he never suffered another stomach upset. Our guys love their diet, we keep it varied. We have x batt hens so the saints have the eggs (cooked) to avoid blood dyscrasia's. We still do feed a little animal based products which is human grade not animal grade. Our old girl is nearly 13 which is an awesome age for a saint but she dies not like the vegan biscuits so we don't try to make her eat them. Its great never having to pick up a sloppy poo anymore, it stinks less, the pink stains have gone from their whites without the use of chemicals or product. We feed veganpet which has been rigorously tested and meets all and exceeds some AAFCO and NPA requirements and standards. The bioavailabilty of protein is no different to the "top range" commercial dog foods

[Dame Aussie]

Thanks for that perspective Donna :) 13 is a brilliant age for a Saint!

[JulesP]

We feed veganpet which has been rigorously tested and meets all and exceeds some AAFCO and NPA requirements and standards. The bioavailabilty of protein is no different to the "top range" commercial dog foods

I looked at that food but didn't like the yeast and brewers yeast in it. Too high in purine for my dog. It was also way too high in protein for my dog too.

[Nekhbet]

Donna I'm just curious as to what you find so great about an ingredient list like this?

All ingredients are GMO free and human grade; organic where possible. Full fat soya, corn gluten, corn, rice, flaxmeal, yeast, brewer’s yeast, sunflower and soy oil (cold pressed organic), vital amino acids, vitamins and minerals, natural enzymes, spirillina, kelp, yucca extract, Omega 3 and Omega 6, Taurine, LCarnitine, Amylase, vegetarian chicken flavour, Prebiotic, Aa, DHA and EPA.

compared to something like BARF or Vets All Natural diets? I'm also wondering what dyscrasia exactly you found without animal protein like eggs in the diet?

[bamboo]

Despite being a vegetarian of 20+ years and trying to change to vegan at this time, I am, sadly, neither pale nor skinny. Nor as a wannabe vegan do I want to prevent anyone having well loved and cared for pets. I am opposed to factory farming, live export, the fur trade and similar industries where animal suffering is downplayed in favour of economic gain. I do not understand why our pets are granted so many privileges and protections that other animals are not. I do believe that in some (not all) cases animal rights activists are playing a vital role in improving the awareness of the general public to the amount of suffering which is inflicted to keep humans gratified. I find it disappointing when I see vegans/vegetarians/activists being stereotyped in such negative ways. We are not all one homogenous group! I also deeply resent the suggestion that I "force" my vegetarian diet on my children - both of my girls have chosen to embrace this diet as they see it as the only choice compatible with their love of animals. I have always made it clear that although I do not choose to cook meat dishes they are very welcome to experiment, without judgement, out of the home. I do not see how this is different to forcing a personal belief that meat should be eaten regularly on our children. Sorry for the off topic rant, obviously this is an area which frutrates me!

Back to pets - currently I have vegetarian chooks, guinea pigs and parrot. My dog and cat are not vegetarian. I have had vegetarian (not vegan)dogs in the past. My great dane and mastiff cross did very well healthwise and appeared to eat their food with enthusiasm. I had the assistance of a vet to ensure that their health was not compromised. After some time I reintroduced bones because I was unable to find a vegetarian substitute which could withstand their jaws for more than a few minutes and was concerned that I wasn't meeting their dental and psychological needs to chew. I did not choose this diet for my own ego, or to be hip. I chose it because I wish to reduce the amount of money I contribute to an industry dependent on suffering. My current dog, a border collie, is not vegetarian - he has fish such as sardines, eggs from my own happy pet chooks, and some bones as well as a wide range of vegetarian products. I may choose to change him to an almost totally vegetarian diet at a later date, I am undecided. But you can be sure that his health and contentment are my priorities.

[Salukifan]

VERY challenging to replicate a meat based diet that has all necessary amino acids with vegetarian sources.

Soy is a commonly used protein source in vego dog diets (and in cheaper dog foods too). Many dogs do not digest it well. Quinoa based food would be better IMO.

I think dogs are not philosophers and that they should be fed a species appropriate diet whenever possible. From where I sit, that includes meat.

I fed my dogs a raw diet when I was a vego. I don't think a vegan diet would be balanced or satisfying for most dogs.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[mixeduppup]

A vegan diet would be very costly. It's even costly for people.

[Guest Labradork]

VERY challenging to replicate a meat based diet that has all necessary amino acids with vegetarian sources.

Soy is a commonly used protein source in vego dog diets (and in cheaper dog foods too). Many dogs do not digest it well. Quinoa based food would be better IMO.

I think dogs are not philosophers and that they should be fed a species appropriate diet whenever possible. From where I sit, that includes meat.

I fed my dogs a raw diet when I was a vego. I don't think a vegan diet would be balanced or satisfying for most dogs.

Very well put, Haredown Whippets - I totally agree.

[Salukifan]

Anyone who thinks a vegetarian diet is "no kill" needs to think a little more about how food is produced. If you displace animals in order to grow crops, they don't all go on to live long and happy lives ya know.

Pesticides kill animals. Just not cuddly ones.

If you can afford to feed your dog a completely organic vegan diet, well bully for you. But should animals be deprived of their natural diet in order to satisfy some human desire for a more moral life?

If you can't handle the idea of feeding dogs or cats meat, my honest view is you probably shouldn't own one.

[JulesP]

It has been a very polite, respectful discussion so far it would be nice to keep it that way.

[mantis]

It has been a very polite, respectful discussion so far it would be nice to keep it that way.

Totally agree.

[Dame Aussie]

For me being vegan is about living a life as free from cruelty as possible, I assume it's the same for most others, obviously I can't be sure.

Yes I step on ants, yes I sometimes accidentally eat bugs and I'm well aware of pesticides and their effect. I am beginning to grow as much of my own fruit and veg as possible also.

Oh and I don't distinguish between cuddly and non cuddly. It's unfortunate that people make judgements on other people's lifestyles without knowing them and without knowing how informed they are on the issues at hand.

It's not perfect, it never will be, but I do what I can, and as I said, I don't force that decision on my animals, same way I don't force it on my family and friends.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Aussie3

[Salukifan]

I have been polite. I also happen to hold the belief I expressed. Cropping kills plenty of animals. The fact that they don't end up on our plates doesnt mean that their deaths don't count does it?

I have no issues with folk who choose not to eat animals. But they have the power to choose for themselves. Our pets don't. So my view is either you feed a pet what nature intended it to eat or choose a pet better suited to your philosophy

What's "impolite" about that?

Edited October 31, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[Dame Aussie]

A vegan diet would be very costly. It's even costly for people.

It's actually not at all.

Maybe if one was buying snack and processed vegan foods, but not if you're buying beans, pasta, rice, lentils, vegies, fruit, nuts and seeds etc. It's much cheaper than meat!

[espinay2]

Fwiw, chickens are not vegetarian and any chicken allowed a degree of free ranging will be eating meat I.e. bugs etc. protein is very important to chicken health. Unless a specific animal product free food is chosen, chicken feed also contains animal products particularly as a source of protein. Only way to ensure a chicken stays vegetarian is to lock it in a cage where it can not scratch at the ground.

Also agree with HW. Cropping, on particular large scale monoculture farming, kills a lot of animals.

Edited October 31, 2012 by espinay2

[Guest donatella]

With all due respect to Vegans I don't actually understand the thought process. I believe in the circle of life, meat is meant to be eaten and killed. Look at Africa, nature is cruel. What would we do without any culling/killing of these meat sources? I don't like the thought that animals have to die but what would we do with them all?