Maremmas And Varying Degrees Of Protective Behaviour?

[mixeduppup]

I have a question for all you LGD savvy peeps.

I've got friends out the road who breed maremmas. They live on a huge farm and use them for mostly poultry protection and one lives at the house and protects it. When we go out there the maremma who protects the house is VERY protective and if his owners aren't there we won't get out of the car, it would be a very bad move. But the ones that protect the poultry are very different. There's two paddocks of poultry, one contains two young males and the other has two females one older and one younger. All of them will bark when we arrive but if we hop out they wag their tails and come to say "hi". My maremma is VERY protective of our property and won't let anyone in the yard at all unless we are there.

I'm just wondering if the dogs are working out what they need to be defending the property against? The dogs that work with chickens are much more human friendly, but the dog's protecting the houses/people are much less so. I was just wondering if they were able to determine and then adjust their guarding behaviour to suit the threat?

Thanks

[Clyde]

All of them will bark when we arrive but if we hop out they wag their tails and come to say "hi".

All of mine wag their tails but they 'aint doing it to be friendly. It confuses a lot of visitors.

I would also say per your title, that they have varying degrees of protective behaviour.

What's happened to your boy the last month of so? You used to post that he was very social and allowed people on your property plus other dogs which he'd play with.

Edited October 29, 2012 by Clyde

[Tralee]

Hi

Dogs have personalities so there is going to be differences depending on breeding and rearing.

Irrespective of the dogs 'duties' all Maremmas should be able to leave their charges and venture into other less officious occasions.

The Maremma should be alert but not aggressive.

You may have seen this but it points out that the onus is on the visitor, not the owner of the dog.

The caution with Maremma, and other breeds I would imagine, is not to allow or encourage prey drive.

The other factor is not to pen puppies with older dogs, if you are raising multiple dogs, in order to prevent competitive guarding.

Lastly, working temperament can be deceptive.

Even the friendliest Maremma can still get the job done, they don't need to be the feral, hell hounds of rural myth.

In fact, if they are then questions need to be asked.

Regards

Edited October 29, 2012 by Tralee

[eyeopener]

Well none of our active guardians are all that stranger friendly but they would never attack unless absolutely neccasary & my dogs will be fine once I am with someone where as mums maremma can do sneak attacks on specially teen males if he is not monitered. I think it may be more a territorial issue with the house guard where as the chicken guardians are bonded to the chooks so will protect them IF needed. I find most of our dogs are quite good at reading a situation & deciding whats a threat what may be a threat & what deff is not a threat at all.

Mums maremma is picky with his play mates but has a couple who don't live here but visit to play n he gets on well with all but 1 of my male dog. I think it's individual thing n how they are brought up too.

[mixeduppup]

All of them will bark when we arrive but if we hop out they wag their tails and come to say "hi".

All of mine wag their tails but they 'aint doing it to be friendly. It confuses a lot of visitors.

I would also say per your title, that they have varying degrees of protective behaviour.

What's happened to your boy the last month of so? You used to post that he was very social and allowed people on your property plus other dogs which he'd play with.

Oh he's the same, he's very social if we're home but not when we're out (as per friends reporting when they come to visit and we're not home). He's fine with other dogs, always has been.

[mixeduppup]

As for the tail wagging it's very friendly and not the territorial wagging that the house maremma does. They actually run up and lean on us.

[Steve]

Mine know what is normal for the area they live in - anything that's not usual they yell about and scare the daylights out of any visitor.

My house dogs know that if I know you or know you are coming that I will give instructions on how to enter the property . You drive through and I greet you at the front of the house and they bark - as soon as I bring you up onto the porch they know you are welcome and shut up.

They also work differently when there are more than one - not because they are competing but because they work as a team. With the ones working with poultry or the sheep as long as you dont approach the animals like a bat out of hell all is well and that behaviour of nudging you and acting as if they want a pat etc is about keeping you where you are - This is really obvious if you have ever observed them taming toddlers.

When I have young kids here they dont have a clue that the dogs are keeping them confined. When the kids start to move out the nice dog stands in front of them - please pat me, I love you - try to take another step - o Im not moving I love you I want you to pat me and then they sit keeping the kid stationary or slowing bring their bodies around and bring the kid back. No matter what at every level they are watching and protecting and they assess you in a heartbeat and work out what behaviour is best for them to use. It looks like the dogs are keeping the kids safe and probably the house dogs are but its also about keeping the kids from the other things they are guarding. Much also depends on the animals or people they are guarding as well . If for example the chickens or sheep are flighty or give signals they are threatened ever so slightly like a flick of an ear or stamp of the foot etc the dog picks it up and reacts . They have no real desire to get pats from you and show you they love you as you are not their family , their behaviour is about doing the same thing the one barking is - keeping you where you are. if you think the dog nudging you and asking for a pat will hesitate and not grab you if it feels you are attacking its owner I wouldn't bet the back of my leg on it.

I believe what you are seeing when you observe them is what they want you to see and the minute you go from gentle visitor who has been here before who isn't bothering the chickens to anything that resembles a possible threat the same dog you think is not so cranky can become cranky. That tail wagging isnt friendly its giving you a chance.

[mixeduppup]

That's interesting, thanks Steve. It really explained it well. So with my boy when he leans on visitors he's doing his guarding behaviour and blocking them.

I have a question about bonding behaviour. Ammo has known our neighbours and my sister (lives in Sydney) since he was a very young dog and they've always made an effort to be his friend and get to know him. They're the only people who can come in our yard if we're not here. Has he accepted them into the "family" and now considers them part of what he is protecting or is he just giving them a chance? Whenever the neighbours get here he follows them and offers them his paw as if it were a handshake and my sister he leans on a lot.

[Steve]

I gave up long ago trying to work out what a dog thinks. This might help put it into perspective.

2 incidences.

Our neighbour comes and goes pretty often so the dog doesnt react when he comes in. She came up said hello and moved off to another room while he spoke with my husband. Everyone forgot about the dog. The neighbour was telling my husband a joke and on the punch line he jumped up, raised his voice [ a lot] and raised his arm. In a heart beat the dog was on him - between he and my husband , teeth bared, growling snapping - no doubt she was going for him until he sat back down. She then sat for a while and then laid at my husbands feet and each time she got even a hint that the visitor might stand up or sit on the edge of his chair she sat up too and gave a low growl. In that instant she perceived him to be a potential threat and he was unable to enter my property again without terror being inflicted on him to a point where we needed to ensure she couldnt get to him when he came around.

Another time- I have 8 kids but 6 are old and 2 are young . I had 6 before I was 25 and two in my 40's so there is 26 years between my oldest and youngest . I had a bitch who was born the same day as my youngest son and she was his constant companion.

So eldest son comes home for a visit , the dog knows him and does the snuggle buddy stuff as your dog does and for two days of the visit all is good. Then I'm out walking in the yard with the two year old kid and the 23 three year old kid comes running up behind him, throws him into the air and weee!!!! - isn't that fun!

The dog didnt see it that way and before anyone saw it coming she had bitten my eldest son on the back of the leg . Not enough to draw blood but enough to make him gently put the kid down and not move. Well for the rest of the visit she no longer wanted the snuggle buddy stuff from him and as long as when he walked his feet didn't point in the same direction as the 2 year old all was well but as soon as she though he might be going that way the low growl was heard. We stopped that behaviour by keeping the older kid in one spot and bringing the younger one to him so she could see he wasn't a threat and we didn't see him as a threat but we all knew what could be done to the baby and by whom when the dog was on the job. Anyone living in that house could have done the same thing with no reaction but clearly she didn't see the oldest son and as much a part of the family as those who lived with us all the time. This is one of two times in 20 years Ive seen one bite without warning

So how do they think - dunno but what you see isnt necessarily giving you any clues on that - its 100% about what they consider a threat to their family and what isnt a threat today may be tomorrow .

Edited October 29, 2012 by Steve

[Steve]

One more. We knew someone who came to visit often enough for the dogs not to care much and one of the dogs would sit on the porch with him and get these nice pats. So one kid is up the back and comes face to face with a brown snake .He jumps up on top of a tank with one dog between him and the snake and he calls us on the phone- come and save us there's brown snake . So hubby and visitor jump in the ute to save him. One dog stays with the snake and the other comes to the gate to see who is coming in.

They get to the gate and the visitor jumps out and opens the gate- hubby doesn't wait and drives off fast toward where the kid is. Visitor shuts the gate and starts to run full pelt towards my hubby and the kid area - the dog is barking and the visitor is not stopping he's running full speed ahead ignoring the dog because he knows the dog knows him and thinks all is well. the dog came in front of him and tried to trip him visitor still running side steps the dog and continues on. the dog bit him on the back of the leg skittled him and stood [straddled] over him growling until the hubby got back to him after saving the kid. He rings now to be sure that dog isnt waiting at the gate for him.

If there had been one dog there it wouldn't have left the kid but two work as a team and took on what was perceived to be two predators.

[Steve]

Alright - one more

I was baby sitting some of the grand kids and 9 out of the 15 were here for a sleep over . So Ive got 11 kids and three Maremma who work with the sheep and a mob of sheep in the paddock . We took blankets out and laid on them to look at the stars and tell stories. We didnt notice the dogs or the sheep apart from the dogs taking it in turns to yell at the front fence now and then. When it was time for us to go inside and we went to stand up all of the dogs and all of the sheep were almost right on top of us where the dogs had moved the sheep up to us to enable them to watch us humans as well as the sheep. Kids and sheep all strolled back to the house with the dogs moving ahead to be sure the way was clear. Awesome!

[mixeduppup]

Very interesting. So basically they decide what is a threat and then what degree of protective behaviour with which to meet that perceived threat and they're very unforgiving/wary of that person after that. Thank you.

[Steve]

Very interesting. So basically they decide what is a threat and then what degree of protective behaviour with which to meet that perceived threat and they're very unforgiving/wary of that person after that. Thank you.

Thats it.

[PuddleDuck]

When I have young kids here they dont have a clue that the dogs are keeping them confined. When the kids start to move out the nice dog stands in front of them - please pat me, I love you - try to take another step - o Im not moving I love you I want you to pat me and then they sit keeping the kid stationary or slowing bring their bodies around and bring the kid back. No matter what at every level they are watching and protecting and they assess you in a heartbeat and work out what behaviour is best for them to use. It looks like the dogs are keeping the kids safe and probably the house dogs are but its also about keeping the kids from the other things they are guarding. Much also depends on the animals or people they are guarding as well . If for example the chickens or sheep are flighty or give signals they are threatened ever so slightly like a flick of an ear or stamp of the foot etc the dog picks it up and reacts . They have no real desire to get pats from you and show you they love you as you are not their family , their behaviour is about doing the same thing the one barking is - keeping you where you are. if you think the dog nudging you and asking for a pat will hesitate and not grab you if it feels you are attacking its owner I wouldn't bet the back of my leg on it.

Gawd Steve I need a maremma.....the only thing my dogs have done to 'help' with a toddler is to teach her how to sneak out the dog door :laugh:

[Steve]

I sent a pup home to a small town and in one of the houses close by a toddler would escape onto the road .the dog would round the kid up and take it back and block it's way so it couldnt get off the front porch until; Mum worked out the kid was gone again.

The whole street loved it and it guarded all of their properties - clearly saw the whole street as its territory but as it got older it wanted to stop anyone it didnt see as its family or those who normally came and went ,recognised the good cars versus the strange ones and wanted to look after more than this street and was standing its ground yelling at semi trailers which dared to use the road the street ran into etc - people didnt like it so much when it wasnt cute any more so she had to get locked up .

[Steve]

When I have young kids here they dont have a clue that the dogs are keeping them confined. When the kids start to move out the nice dog stands in front of them - please pat me, I love you - try to take another step - o Im not moving I love you I want you to pat me and then they sit keeping the kid stationary or slowing bring their bodies around and bring the kid back. No matter what at every level they are watching and protecting and they assess you in a heartbeat and work out what behaviour is best for them to use. It looks like the dogs are keeping the kids safe and probably the house dogs are but its also about keeping the kids from the other things they are guarding. Much also depends on the animals or people they are guarding as well . If for example the chickens or sheep are flighty or give signals they are threatened ever so slightly like a flick of an ear or stamp of the foot etc the dog picks it up and reacts . They have no real desire to get pats from you and show you they love you as you are not their family , their behaviour is about doing the same thing the one barking is - keeping you where you are. if you think the dog nudging you and asking for a pat will hesitate and not grab you if it feels you are attacking its owner I wouldn't bet the back of my leg on it.

Gawd Steve I need a maremma.....the only thing my dogs have done to 'help' with a toddler is to teach her how to sneak out the dog door :laugh:

Maremma lays across the dog door to block it from the kids.

[Dame Aussie]

When I have young kids here they dont have a clue that the dogs are keeping them confined. When the kids start to move out the nice dog stands in front of them - please pat me, I love you - try to take another step - o Im not moving I love you I want you to pat me and then they sit keeping the kid stationary or slowing bring their bodies around and bring the kid back. No matter what at every level they are watching and protecting and they assess you in a heartbeat and work out what behaviour is best for them to use. It looks like the dogs are keeping the kids safe and probably the house dogs are but its also about keeping the kids from the other things they are guarding. Much also depends on the animals or people they are guarding as well . If for example the chickens or sheep are flighty or give signals they are threatened ever so slightly like a flick of an ear or stamp of the foot etc the dog picks it up and reacts . They have no real desire to get pats from you and show you they love you as you are not their family , their behaviour is about doing the same thing the one barking is - keeping you where you are. if you think the dog nudging you and asking for a pat will hesitate and not grab you if it feels you are attacking its owner I wouldn't bet the back of my leg on it.

Gawd Steve I need a maremma.....the only thing my dogs have done to 'help' with a toddler is to teach her how to sneak out the dog door :laugh:

Maremma lays across the dog door to block it from the kids.

Interesting, if I am home alone, especially at night, my LGD will lie across the front doorway and not move. Either that or right on top of me *rolleyes*.

[PuddleDuck]

When I have young kids here they dont have a clue that the dogs are keeping them confined. When the kids start to move out the nice dog stands in front of them - please pat me, I love you - try to take another step - o Im not moving I love you I want you to pat me and then they sit keeping the kid stationary or slowing bring their bodies around and bring the kid back. No matter what at every level they are watching and protecting and they assess you in a heartbeat and work out what behaviour is best for them to use. It looks like the dogs are keeping the kids safe and probably the house dogs are but its also about keeping the kids from the other things they are guarding. Much also depends on the animals or people they are guarding as well . If for example the chickens or sheep are flighty or give signals they are threatened ever so slightly like a flick of an ear or stamp of the foot etc the dog picks it up and reacts . They have no real desire to get pats from you and show you they love you as you are not their family , their behaviour is about doing the same thing the one barking is - keeping you where you are. if you think the dog nudging you and asking for a pat will hesitate and not grab you if it feels you are attacking its owner I wouldn't bet the back of my leg on it.

Gawd Steve I need a maremma.....the only thing my dogs have done to 'help' with a toddler is to teach her how to sneak out the dog door :laugh:

Maremma lays across the dog door to block it from the kids.

The toller all but holds it open and tells the kid to make sure they bring food

[Tralee]

I had a visitor stay over-night for a couple of days.

As the guy was not really well known, I decided to sleep with the door open and a Maremma on the bed.

The vistior got up during the night to use the bathroom but had to pass by my bedroom door.

Needless to say I had to jump out of bed to allow him to get to the bathroom.

Once, while on a regular afternoon walk with two dogs, we ran into the guy across the road who always used to allow his dog to run out into the street without a lead.

That, of course used to make the dogs bark and the neighbours would complain.

So I approached him about his dog being off lead and he began to get hostile.

When he raised his voice and stepped into my personal space, I suddenly had my big dog standing on two legs beside me.

He had the neighbour eye to eye and was barking frantically.

It surprised me as much as it scared the daylights out of the neighbour.

Now I manage my dogs accordingly.

[Dame Aussie]

My boy is pretty friendly with unknown people as long as we're there but one night while walking him a guy was standing out on his nature strip, as we kept walking he stepped further out, looked like he wanted to get a look at the dog, we didn't even notice but Mosley turned round in a shot and started growling like a hound from hell :laugh:

not like him at all so it shows that what we might not even notice they see as a threat.