twodoggies2001 Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 I know the feeling and just how attached we become to our puppies. Years ago we bought a miniature schnauzer puppy from a reputable breeder with whom we are still the best of friends. My boy at 6 months was diagnosed with a liver shunt and he was referred to the Werribee vet teaching hospital and initially he was put on a low protein diet. He was producing crystals that eventually turned into stones that caused blockages. This was the only symptom except for vomiting from time to time. It was evident that this didn't help him and it was decided to operate on him at Werribee. The surgeon did warn me that there was a chance his liver may not cope with the extra blood flow after the shunt was clamped off. I told him if this was the case, to not bring him around because the prognosis was not good and he would eventually die anyway. By the time I came home within a few minutes the surgeon called to say the surgery was a success. He lived to 14.5 years old. Initially his diet was adjusted but then he was basically back to normal. It did cost thousands of dollars but my husband and I decided to give him every chance. If you feel that's the path you want to take, then go with it, otherwise in your own heart there will always that question of 'what if'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jednkirrasmummy Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 I totally agree twodoggies if there is a chanc for him I want to take it. The specialists said that they wont know straight away if the surgery has worked or not? That it will take up to 6 weeks to find out? My fear is that in that time if he is as unwell as he has been in last few days, obviously we can't have 6 weeks off work to watch him and will be constantly worried that he is at home having a seizure etc. I wish I had more clarification from specialists about what to expect etc. after surgery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jednkirrasmummy Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 I know the feeling and just how attached we become to our puppies. Years ago we bought a miniature schnauzer puppy from a reputable breeder with whom we are still the best of friends. My boy at 6 months was diagnosed with a liver shunt and he was referred to the Werribee vet teaching hospital and initially he was put on a low protein diet. He was producing crystals that eventually turned into stones that caused blockages. This was the only symptom except for vomiting from time to time. It was evident that this didn't help him and it was decided to operate on him at Werribee. The surgeon did warn me that there was a chance his liver may not cope with the extra blood flow after the shunt was clamped off. I told him if this was the case, to not bring him around because the prognosis was not good and he would eventually die anyway. By the time I came home within a few minutes the surgeon called to say the surgery was a success. He lived to 14.5 years old. Initially his diet was adjusted but then he was basically back to normal. It did cost thousands of dollars but my husband and I decided to give him every chance. If you feel that's the path you want to take, then go with it, otherwise in your own heart there will always that question of 'what if'. Can I ask was this a intrahepatic or extrahepatic shunt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodoggies2001 Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 I know the feeling and just how attached we become to our puppies. Years ago we bought a miniature schnauzer puppy from a reputable breeder with whom we are still the best of friends. My boy at 6 months was diagnosed with a liver shunt and he was referred to the Werribee vet teaching hospital and initially he was put on a low protein diet. He was producing crystals that eventually turned into stones that caused blockages. This was the only symptom except for vomiting from time to time. It was evident that this didn't help him and it was decided to operate on him at Werribee. The surgeon did warn me that there was a chance his liver may not cope with the extra blood flow after the shunt was clamped off. I told him if this was the case, to not bring him around because the prognosis was not good and he would eventually die anyway. By the time I came home within a few minutes the surgeon called to say the surgery was a success. He lived to 14.5 years old. Initially his diet was adjusted but then he was basically back to normal. It did cost thousands of dollars but my husband and I decided to give him every chance. If you feel that's the path you want to take, then go with it, otherwise in your own heart there will always that question of 'what if'. Can I ask was this a intrahepatic or extrahepatic shunt? I believe it was extraheptatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jednkirrasmummy Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 They told us extrahepatic are more common in smaller breed dogs, whereas Jed has an intrahepatic shunt found in larger breed dogs, and more difficult to fix surgically. Success rate is higher for extrahepatic shunts. Woofnhoof, we are being told that we should wait until Jed is completely well to have the surgery, as it increases the risks if he is unwell. I just don't know if he is going to get to the point of being that well! You said your husky was in a coma and having seizures just beforehand right? And they still did the surgery and it was successful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 My boy had been out of the coma and was relatively stable for about a month before his op if I remember correctly, he was up and down while we were waiting for the op and would vary between almost normal to depressed and flat the day before the op he was off colour and pacing again, it was a worry but the surgeons were confident that he was stable enough to operate. If your vets are advising to wait I'd go with what they suggest, he won't be completely well but hopefully he will be feeling a bit better than he is now, it sounds like they are just hoping his system will settle a little after the seizure. Ideally before any surgery you want the dog as healthy as possible so if he's improving at the moment then it may have just been a freak thing that made him extra sick, he may have gotten into some food or found something to eat in the yard they can be a bit sneaky like that. Their condition can be associated with pica-like symptoms so they will eat everything and anything so you have to watch them and make sure there is nothing around he can put in his mouth. When my boy was on the table the surgeon noticed that his stomach wasn't empty even though he'd been fasted for surgery, they opened the stomach and found all sorts of bits and pieces in there including milk bottle tops and pieces of foam from a mattress he'd chewed up! Anyway your vets are the ones who will know the best timing for surgery if they aren't comfortable doing it just yet then try not to worry and just go with what they think, if you trust your vets that is, you can also get a second opinion give someone from SUVH a ring and see if you can get their perspective over the phone I found most of the specialists I talked to really helpful and generous with their time and information, if Bruce Mackay is still at Brisbane Specialist Vet Centre you can try him he was great with my dog. The main thing is don't be afraid to ask questions and try and get as much information as you can :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 They told us extrahepatic are more common in smaller breed dogs, whereas Jed has an intrahepatic shunt found in larger breed dogs, and more difficult to fix surgically. Success rate is higher for extrahepatic shunts. Woofnhoof, we are being told that we should wait until Jed is completely well to have the surgery, as it increases the risks if he is unwell. I just don't know if he is going to get to the point of being that well! You said your husky was in a coma and having seizures just beforehand right? And they still did the surgery and it was successful? I have Amber 'well' on diet and drugs. You really wouldn't know there was anything wrong with her if you saw her at the park. So it is possible to get them stable. Amber eats Hills L/D dog food and has Metrogyl (an antibiotic), she also has a diuretic (which you only need if there are fluid issues). The puppy will need lots of small meals a day, 6 if you can. Lactulose might be needed to get those toxins out of him. A product that I found helpful was Pediaure. It is a drink for sick kids. It is easy for the liver to digest and gives it a rest whilst supplying the dog with nutrients. It is available in Chemist's Warehouse in a tin. There are other things you can add in, milk thistle, pro-biotics, various vitamins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Ok as a breeder of a breed that we test pups for liver shunt here are my two cents. I ave had two shunt puppies diagnosed through testing. Pup A: very small, but fully outgoing and cheeky..she had to bile acid before and after tastings which came out high and then to confirm shut a syntigraph was done. She was operated on and four years later is fine and was adopted by a vet nurse at Werrivee where I do all my tesiting :) Pup B: same size as others from birth but very quiet and sleepy. Same tests done that came out high twice, syntigraphy done again to confirm multiple shunts. I gave the ok to euthanasia as this pup had a low survival rate with the operation. Pup C: is currently in my backyard at 7 months old awaiting a syntigraphy. He is fat, healthy, same size as others and a sweet thing, but two bile acid tests have come out high. Not sure what we have really and neither is Dr Linda Abraham at Werribee Veterinary Hospital, the leading Vet in shunts here in Victoria. But there's not way I would place him in home until confirmed shunt or not. Yes, your breeder needs to know, and seeing how its not the first of this breed to have a shunt perhaps breeders need to think about testing pups? There is no known genetic marker so I call it Russian roulette..you get two carriers and boom...but at least we find it before it gets to a home to break people's hearts when smithing like this happens. I have always been open about my ant puppies, it peeves me off no end when breeders cover up the fact a stud dog has produces a litter with shunt...sure it may not be him, but it is obviously behind him somewhere. Have you had a Syntigraphy done to confirm where the shunt is and how bad it is? Might be your first port of call...(CAT scan with radioactive dye that shows up shunt). If it were me, I would probably pts, if the unlikely hood of a successful operation. You still have his sister. This is why I have not got close to the pup here, incase he has to be pts) it broke my heart to make a decision for a 6 week puppy...I cannot imagine a 12 week old. But geeze I do feel for you, it's not a great feeling and I'm so sorry ((hugs))) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Oh wow, blooming iPad, please excuse horrendous typing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jednkirrasmummy Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 Do you think 70% is a high enough success rate to go ahead with surgery though? And would it be worth calling werribee to get their opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jednkirrasmummy Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 Sorry, he did have an ultrasound done which is what the specialist advised us to do. Had anyone heard much about the essendon animal accident and emergency vet? That's where he is at the moment, I hope we have him at the best place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Thanks for your thoughts missymoo :) I'm not sure whether husky breeders should be worried about testing at this stage, mine came from byb/petshop so I don't really count him as a representative of husky breeding in general even though he is undeniably a husky if you know what I mean? I remember downloading the UKC breed health survey and it was mentioned there but nowhere near the top of the list of health issues reported so I'm not sure whether is something that could be considered an 'issue' in the breed at this stage. Anyway that is up to clubs and breeders I guess and it's worth keeping an eye out for it just in case it does crop up a bit more. Jednkirrasmummy I don't know anything about Victorian vets but I would definitely recommend ringing around some of the specialists, you want to ask to speak to someone experienced in liver shunts, it is a really good idea to get as many opinions as you can on this because they can vary and it can really help you work out what the best plan is. If I hadn't asked around and gotten second opinions I wouldn't have even gotten a diagnosis, my local vets had no clue what was wrong with my dog as they'd never seen it before. Let your fingers do the walking you want to talk to the specialists in this area as they would see these things more often than general vets, their advice will either match what you've been told or offer a different angle, either way it will help you to have as much info as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Yes go to Werribee..and A and E is just that... Will pm you details... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 I would also suggest you contact Werribee . They are a hospital..and have access to anything your little one will need . :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheree_e4 Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 I have had a dog with a portosystemic shunt and I decided to PTS at 14mths of age, It was very sad to see her going downhill ,she was not diagnosed until 12mths old when she had a major blood test before desexing.She had been a picky eater from about 6mths of age.She was put onto Hills L/D but she continued to deteriate. The option of surgery was given to me but after reading and talking with my vet I decided it was not fair to put her through any more. Have you had the litter sister bile acid tested? If not I advise you get this done as while she may seem fine now there is a chance she could still have one and just not showing signs yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jednkirrasmummy Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 I haven't had her tested, I spoke to our normal vet about it and she said the chances were extremely low . Also Kirra is much bigger than Jed, she is nearly double his size and she is thriving! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheree_e4 Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) My girl Dreamy was totally normal... would not have known something was wrong other than her blood test results. She started having full on symptoms around 13mths old. ETA - remember shunts are Hereditary .Please test your other pup. Edited October 27, 2012 by sheree_e4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jednkirrasmummy Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 Now I am stressing about her as well - I couldn't take it if she had it as well. I'm already not coping well with all of this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Don't panic testing her is a good idea for peace of mind if nothing else, since she's not urgent at the moment I wouldn't think there would be a great hurry to have her checked right away anyway, just worry about one problem at a time :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) Don't panic, it is rare for more then one pup of a litter to have it sweetie. (((Hugs)))agree with WnH above, one thing at a time :) Edited October 27, 2012 by Missymoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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