Anxiety And Physical/mental Exercise

[Wobbly]

Do you think that's because that's what she's used to, though, rather than just being restless? My girl could certainly go and go and go, but she knows that evenings are for resting and hanging out, so she rarely tries anything. Not saying that's definitely the case, but it's interesting :)

Could be habit - it's a time of day I enjoy playing with her, all my responsible adult stuff is done for the day and I can just relax and play, so I've certainly made something of a routine. Other times of day she knows she's liable to get a flat refusal to her playful overtures. I've also accustomed her to a lot of exercise, so it could just be that she gets a bit ansty without it in the same way a gym junkie gets a bit antsy without their regular gym session - they're accustomed to the chemicals a lot of exercises releases.

Yeah Weasels, I'm with you on wanting the acreage - how cool to be able to take your morning coffee and dog for a walk out the backdoor, instead of having to drive to the walk spots.

OK I should shut up now, I have no experience with anxious dogs so I have nothing of value to add to this thread really.

[The Spotted Devil]

I think the genetic aspect of the off switch is fascinating. As a puppy Zig's was average and much of it has been trained. Em is amazing and has been since 8 weeks - the perfect working dog in that regard. Asleep in the car at a retrieving trial. Explodes at the start peg :laugh: Young ESS currently visiting is showing a good off switch already. Will be interesting to see his on switch develop. I would say that Zig is confident but anxious and Em is shy but relaxed. Pup appears to be confident and quite relaxed for his age.

All the dogs have daily training/exercise but the nature and amount vary daily and is always dependent on how they are coping with the learning. The routine is: there is no routine!

Edited October 26, 2012 by The Spotted Devil

[kayla1]

Re routine being a cause of anxiety, would this be the same for dogs that are fearful or lack confidence? I understand that routine can help build confidence in fearful dogs. Or is it a matter of gradually breaking up the routine as the dog becomes more confident?

[The Spotted Devil]

Re routine being a cause of anxiety, would this be the same for dogs that are fearful or lack confidence? I understand that routine can help build confidence in fearful dogs. Or is it a matter of gradually breaking up the routine as the dog becomes more confident?

Kayla - understanding causation is very difficult. Also remember that consistency and predictability is different to routine. I would say the former two are critical and will help build confidence. The problem with routine comes when you change it - suddenly the dog goes from having daily walks at 6am and 6pm to nothing. What I try to teach my dogs is to go with the flow - yesterday all 3 went to the oval at about 3pm (plus errands) - pup pottered with me, Em did lots of running (retrieving training) and Zig did mostly low key obedience. I had a long day today so it's 7pm and I'm probably going to walk the dogs in the pouring rain. Pup will stay home alone for the first time. I might do some training indoors for their dinner. Anticipation of an event occurring can lead to further anxiety with a chain of environmental cues exacerbating it. Hope that is clear. On my phone and having a cheeky single malt :laugh:

ETA: If I decided I couldn't be bothered tonight they'd all just settle in. These are fit, active dogs too.

Edited October 26, 2012 by The Spotted Devil

[Aidan3]

Great post, TSD

[Smartypaws]

Ooohhhh, great thread! Some of my thoughts......

Does routine create anxiety? Or do dogs with anxiety (or prone to anxiety) need routine as a management strategy?

My anxious dog copes best if life is predictable and if the behaviour of the people and dogs in his life is consistent. In his case unpredictability is the enemy. His anxiety disorder makes him hyper vigilant, so he notices anything that is out of place, out of context, or inconsistent with his understanding of the world.

I think that the saving grace for my anxious dog is that he has exceptional focus due to the time and energy I have put into his training since he was a pup......he loves his play rewards (tug/frisbee/ball). The value I have built for working with me to earn his toys has created one of very few spaces where he is able to focus on something other than his feelings of anxiety (although stacked triggers make this focus impossible too). Maybe this explains why some dogs appear to 'need' exercise/training in order to not spiral into anxious behaviours?? Ie. the anxiety may actually always be there, but while training/exercising/doing something they like and value the dog is able to focus on something other than the feelings of anxiety. Training is also somewhat predictable, ie. offer desired behaviour, earn reward - so for my dog, something not to be anxious about.

I also think that stress is cumulative - so after a training session there are residual feelings of calm......but as the environment starts to throw up unpredictable elements - heard a noise, something moved over there, that person behaved in a way that is inconsistent with my understanding of the world - one trigger on top of another, the anxiety returns. Also why it is likely your dog will react on a walk a second/third/fourth time once they have reacted a first time.

I think way too much about this stuff!! I guess that's what happens when life throws you a doggy curve ball :D

[kayla1]

Re routine being a cause of anxiety, would this be the same for dogs that are fearful or lack confidence? I understand that routine can help build confidence in fearful dogs. Or is it a matter of gradually breaking up the routine as the dog becomes more confident?

Kayla - understanding causation is very difficult. Also remember that consistency and predictability is different to routine. I would say the former two are critical and will help build confidence. The problem with routine comes when you change it - suddenly the dog goes from having daily walks at 6am and 6pm to nothing. What I try to teach my dogs is to go with the flow - yesterday all 3 went to the oval at about 3pm (plus errands) - pup pottered with me, Em did lots of running (retrieving training) and Zig did mostly low key obedience. I had a long day today so it's 7pm and I'm probably going to walk the dogs in the pouring rain. Pup will stay home alone for the first time. I might do some training indoors for their dinner. Anticipation of an event occurring can lead to further anxiety with a chain of environmental cues exacerbating it. Hope that is clear. On my phone and having a cheeky single malt :laugh:

ETA: If I decided I couldn't be bothered tonight they'd all just settle in. These are fit, active dogs too.

Thanks. When you say consistency and predictability, do you mean specifically in terms of training when the dog knows that a certain behaviour leads to a particular outcome, or is it more about how we interact with the dog in general or something else?

[hankdog]

I am definitely if the opinion that dogs have personalities and also can suffer from disorders thereof. Much the same as in humans the personality is disordered only if it makes them unfit for living in their circumstances. I once had a lecturer put forward the view that being a drug addict was not necessarily dysfunctional if it was part of a multimillion dollar rock star lifestyle. So I suppose if a dog needs 8 hours of excercise a day and lives on a farm as a working dog that's not a problem, same dog living in an apartment now it's dysfunctional. Personally I've always found the more I excercise the more I need to, same holds for couch potatodom.

[The Spotted Devil]

Re routine being a cause of anxiety, would this be the same for dogs that are fearful or lack confidence? I understand that routine can help build confidence in fearful dogs. Or is it a matter of gradually breaking up the routine as the dog becomes more confident?

Kayla - understanding causation is very difficult. Also remember that consistency and predictability is different to routine. I would say the former two are critical and will help build confidence. The problem with routine comes when you change it - suddenly the dog goes from having daily walks at 6am and 6pm to nothing. What I try to teach my dogs is to go with the flow - yesterday all 3 went to the oval at about 3pm (plus errands) - pup pottered with me, Em did lots of running (retrieving training) and Zig did mostly low key obedience. I had a long day today so it's 7pm and I'm probably going to walk the dogs in the pouring rain. Pup will stay home alone for the first time. I might do some training indoors for their dinner. Anticipation of an event occurring can lead to further anxiety with a chain of environmental cues exacerbating it. Hope that is clear. On my phone and having a cheeky single malt :laugh:

ETA: If I decided I couldn't be bothered tonight they'd all just settle in. These are fit, active dogs too.

Thanks. When you say consistency and predictability, do you mean specifically in terms of training when the dog knows that a certain behaviour leads to a particular outcome, or is it more about how we interact with the dog in general or something else?

I guess I mean learning - which means training and how we interact with the dog in general. Animals are better able to cope with stressors when the environment is predictable - that includes social, inanimate and predatory contexts. To put it another way, Nature may be cruel but she's bloody predictable!

Thanks Aiden. For the record, I did put down the scotch glass and gave the older dogs a gallop!

[The Spotted Devil]

hankdog - I see what you are saying but I would be hesitant about equating a disorder with a lack of mental/physical stimulation. Put me in a 9-5 office job and I'd probably need drugs too!

[kayla1]

Re routine being a cause of anxiety, would this be the same for dogs that are fearful or lack confidence? I understand that routine can help build confidence in fearful dogs. Or is it a matter of gradually breaking up the routine as the dog becomes more confident?

Kayla - understanding causation is very difficult. Also remember that consistency and predictability is different to routine. I would say the former two are critical and will help build confidence. The problem with routine comes when you change it - suddenly the dog goes from having daily walks at 6am and 6pm to nothing. What I try to teach my dogs is to go with the flow - yesterday all 3 went to the oval at about 3pm (plus errands) - pup pottered with me, Em did lots of running (retrieving training) and Zig did mostly low key obedience. I had a long day today so it's 7pm and I'm probably going to walk the dogs in the pouring rain. Pup will stay home alone for the first time. I might do some training indoors for their dinner. Anticipation of an event occurring can lead to further anxiety with a chain of environmental cues exacerbating it. Hope that is clear. On my phone and having a cheeky single malt :laugh:

ETA: If I decided I couldn't be bothered tonight they'd all just settle in. These are fit, active dogs too.

Thanks. When you say consistency and predictability, do you mean specifically in terms of training when the dog knows that a certain behaviour leads to a particular outcome, or is it more about how we interact with the dog in general or something else?

I guess I mean learning - which means training and how we interact with the dog in general. Animals are better able to cope with stressors when the environment is predictable - that includes social, inanimate and predatory contexts. To put it another way, Nature may be cruel but she's bloody predictable!

Thanks Aiden. For the record, I did put down the scotch glass and gave the older dogs a gallop!

Ok got it, thanks! So it's that consistency and predictability, rather than the routine, that increases confidence. And I guess then being inconsistent and unpredictable in training and interactions can lead to confusion and loss of confidence, and possibly anxiety.

Smartypaws, is that what you find with your dog too, that it's the consistency and predictability rather than the routine itself?

[Smartypaws]

Ok got it, thanks! So it's that consistency and predictability, rather than the routine, that increases confidence. And I guess then being inconsistent and unpredictable in training and interactions can lead to confusion and loss of confidence, and possibly anxiety.

Smartypaws, is that what you find with your dog too, that it's the consistency and predictability rather than the routine itself?

I say potato you say potarto.....a routine can be predictable and consistent, but isn't automatically so - you could do the same things in the same order everyday, but if you go for a walk at 6am everyday and everyday that walk throws unpredictable experiences/interactions at your anxious dog, you have lost the predictability and consistency element. You however, can react predictably and consistently with your dog when those triggers present themselves.

In our case, it is the predictability and consistency of the environment and interactions with people and dogs, and my response to those encounters in terms of management, that is important for my dog.

Sure, I would agree that inconsistency and unpredictability in training may cause confusion for a dog, possibly resulting in the display of anxious behaviours. In my opinion though, if this same dog displayed anxiety out of the training context is unlikely to be a result of unpredictable or inconsistent training alone......and more likely to be the result of a temperamental predisposition to nervousness/anxiety in general. The flip side is that predictable and consistent training in a dog like this can be beneficial. :)

I hope that made sense??

Edited October 26, 2012 by Smartypaws

[kayla1]

Sure, I would agree that inconsistency and unpredictability may cause confusion for a dog, possibly resulting in the display of anxious behaviours. In my opinion though, if this same dog displayed anxiety out of the training context is unlikely to be a result of unpredictable or inconsistent training alone......and more likely to be the result of a temperamental predisposition to nervousness/anxiety in general. The flip side is that predictable and consistent training in a dog like this can be beneficial. :)

I hope that made sense??

Makes sense. :)

Yes...that's why I think my boy is just a naturally more anxious dog. Like your boy, it helps that Maxie also has very good focus and a high value for toys - though training this was made a little easier because he has always placed a high value on toys and has an innate desire to please (unlike my girl Annie :laugh: ).

[corvus]

I suppose I should comment seeing as I apparently inadvertently prompted this thread. :laugh: It's going to be long, though, and I'm not arguing about it or defending myself. Think what you will. You don't have to live with him!

I didn't want to say any more in the other thread because it was getting pretty far off topic and this is not a simple discussion. The little journey we went through with Erik has been very enlightening. When he was about 5 months old we really had no idea what was going on. He would get wound up for some reason and he'd be completely wired for hours. He looked like he was on amphetamines. He literally could not sit still for more than 5 seconds. Everything he heard would prompt him to get up to investigate and often led to him barking. I remember watching him sit next to me on the couch high as a kite for no reason I could tell and just going "What is up with this puppy??" At that stage it was not really anxiety afaik. He was fine on walks.

We realised he needed help winding down and started using massage and pig ears and kongs to get him back down to normal arousal levels and stay there for a while. It worked really well. As he got older and I went back to working from home I had troubles with his alert barking. Just way too much of it. He'd bark at one thing and before he could settle down he'd hear something else and bark at that and it would just build up and build up until he finally settled down to sleep at about midday. I have very little tolerance for barking. Particularly when I'm trying to work. I had moderate success addressing this with the following:

* Massage in the mornings set him up with low arousal and it tended to stay that way for the whole day.

* Thundershirt had much the same effect.

* Let him bark with one volley then call him back to lie on his bed.

* Rewarding for laying on his bed until he fell asleep.

* Relaxation protocol.

* Practice calming down after getting aroused and practice with impulse control.

They all did the job in the short term, but nothing stuck for longer than a few months. He would slide back to this same high arousal sooner or later like a rubber band. I accepted that maybe we needed to give more exercise a try. There was some improvement. I sought advice and was told we were well and truly on the right track. It was suggested we try him on Clomicalm and start giving him something to chew on every day. We tried this. We dropped the Clomicalm after 2 months as its effects were very small. But the chewing seemed to be good stuff, so we doubled the amount of chewing he got in a day. All his food was from frozen kongs or bones. He improved more. At some point we dropped the morning walk because we had a feeling it was just getting him aroused and feeding the problem. In the short-term it helped, but in the long-term he went backwards. We went back to 2 walks a day and he went back to where he was before we dropped the morning walk.

So the management at the moment is that he gets a morning walk most weekdays. It will have at least some off leash time for play and exploring. We keep training to a minimal. Stays and basic stuff. No tricks! Erik f***ing loves tricks. Back home I usually give him some time on the couch with me to cuddle before I do my morning chores and start working. He sleeps most of the day, and when he wakes up and starts poking around I give him a frozen kong or two. Once a week or fortnight he gets a rec bone. He always has access to cow hooves or something similar. The afternoon walk is about an hour and has at least some off leash play and training. The rec bones were the really telling thing to me. I gave him a huge leg bone one day and he spent 4 hours chewing on it that day. The next day he spent 3 hours chewing it, and a further 1 1/2 hours chewing on frozen kongs. The next few days it was 1-2 hours a day he spent on that bone. While he had that bone his reactivity on walks practically disappeared. He was calm at home and there was barely a peep out of him. I was like "Huh, I have a normal dog!" If he misses out on a walk for a couple of days or if he has a few days where he gets less chewing to do, his reactivity and anxiety go up. They go down again with a nice long walk and some dedicated chewing. I can't really argue with that. We have tinkered enough over the last 3 years that we have a pretty good idea what makes him tick these days. The bottom line is he is very mentally active and he lives in a very stimulus poor environment with our boxy suburban house and small yard. I think the physical exercise is secondary to just getting stimuli to process. It's certainly still important to give him a run and play and he can go all day, but what he really needs is stuff to do. Without something to do he just bounces off the environment. Every sound becomes something to do. There's a lot more to it than keeping him physically and mentally content, but we have found that those two things are pretty important to his wellbeing all the same. There's a lot of training and conditioning, but not being frustrated and suffering from chronic elevated arousal goes a long way to making the training part more effective and fun.

[corvus]

If it helps, Erik thrives on rules. Particularly at times he is not very comfortable. This is why Control Unleashed is so helpful. It sets up rule structures. I have the most problems with Erik when I try to disengage from the rule structure. E does everything he can to get me to keep feeding him directions. He has got better since Aidan told me to stop giving him so much direction and manage his reinforcement rate better. :p

[Aidan3]

He has got better since Aidan told me to stop giving him so much direction and manage his reinforcement rate better. :p

Glad that helped :)

[Vickie]

I think that there are dogs born anxious & dogs made anxious.

There are 4 possibilities

Born anxious, made worse by owner

Born anxious, made better by owner

Born without anxiety, made anxious by owner

Born without anxiety, not made anxious by owner.

It is impossible to say identify which category any dog fits in without knowing how it started as a pup & observing the dog and owner in their home environment.

Edited October 26, 2012 by Vickie

[Nekhbet]

Corvus I can't believe you actually put your dog on prescription medication instead of just putting your foot down with his behavior I am really flabbergasted particularly since you spend so much time preaching to other people with what to do. A dog that wired just has not been taught to sit down and calm down - the owner needs to do it. He's no different then the many adolescent dogs throwing themselves around pens at pounds supposedly for being too hyperactive/out of control.

TSD is right routine is the killer, but consistency and patience is a different thing. Entrench a dog in routine and breaking it rocks their world, you keep eroding their ability to cope with change.

[megan_]

Nek how can you diagnose Erik via the Internet without having met him? How do you know that he's like every other adoloscent dog? Aren't we always saying that you can't assess behaviour without seeing a dog?

There are plenty of owners here that have dogs on medication. Are they just lazy and haven't taught their dogs properly?

[BC Crazy]

Nekhbet, I am curious about a couple of comments you have made about anxious dogs. So I have a very anxious young girl & she is at her worst behaviour in our back yard where the slightest

noise will set her off her hours, running, whining & barking. So from what you are saying I should have trained that out of her??? Not trying to be a smart a@$e or anything but have I stuffed up?

I would be devastated to think that I have caused her anxious behaviour by not training her to relax. I know I have 'a lot' of dog with her & am not skilled up enough to deal with her at times.

That's why I read LOTS, trying to get some skills to cope & help her improve.

Stella has been very anxious since a 12 week old pup. I have tried to calm her & relax her & it helped to a point but long term she reverts straight back to her anxious ways. I have taught her to

lay down & rest, which she does do for up to 10 min now even with distractions. But I set that up when I know she is not aroused by something. If she is upset nothing I do or say effects her. It is

like she is totally zoned out & just runs blind if that makes any sense. Like a zombie. I can't reach her mentally to teach her anything. She goes from 0 to 100 in a spilt second.

Edited October 27, 2012 by BC Crazy