Tazar Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 If you hand feed him he will attack the hand you are feed him from, eat the food then continue attacking the hand (the hand is heavily gloved of course). If you give him food then try to pat him with the other hand he will attack that.Everytime you do this you teach him success.I have no idea what you try to achieve by feeding the dog with one hand and then being unpredictable (from the dogs point of view) and patting it with a gloved.Two of my own dogs would take my arm/hand off for that. I can go near them when they eat of course, but I cant be a banana and introduce random objects into what they regard as a very serious time.If he is sleeping and is disturbed, same as above, growl then attack.of course...There are a few things you have written, the way you describe what is happening and what you see in the dog, which to me indicate you need an objective assessment (ie professional intervention) of what is actually going on. Don't assume the dog is nuts and its eyes are glazing over. Usually what you see is not a blank meaningless stare, but a blank stare of intent. Be careful.And seek professional help from someone who is experienced working with HA in dogs.(and get rid of the glove). The gloved handed prevented injury and the dog did not get away with the behaviour. It, the gloved hand, did not move away therefore there was no win for the dog. It was fed out of one hand and patted with the other, this was done twice over two days (using heavy gloves). From this time on the dog was hand fed and patted with different gloves, then no gloves, without further incident. Sorry but I don't understand why your dogs would take you arm/hand off for that I must be missing something... I have never used the word nuts but have witnessed the glazed look and I do not believe it is meaningless either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Tazar ... with trying this & that ..and having so many opinions ..it is a confusing situation. pick a good veterinary behaviourist, who can test for physical and psychological problems , plus advise you/teach you management , etc ..and prescribe any medicines needed ...all in the one place , and with an experience worth its weight in gold :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Sorry but I don't understand why your dogs would take you arm/hand off for that :) have a read of lilli's posts and see what sort of dogs she has ... ..then you might understand. They're not little fluffies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 lilli's dogs are very serious LGD's (ie they protect stock) - very different temps to Labs. The dog may be getting satisfaction from biting the hand, even if it doesn't go away. thereby finding the behaviour rewarding. Not an expert but this behaviour doesn't sound like a lab at all. If I wanted a lab and got this pup I'd be returning it pronto, BYB or not. Not that lab's can't resource guard, but they are mean to be accepting of strangers and an all round happy-go-lucky dog. Not the wording of the standard but you get my drift. If I kept this dog I'd see a vet behaviourist (of which there are very few in Australia) to see the dog as a matter of urgency. Normal vets don't study much behaviour at all. The reactivity might be in its base personality, but it is also being re-inforced EVERY time it reacts. Every day that this goes on it will just get worse. I'd also stop the patting as I don't see the point - who wants to be patted while eating? That said, I take food away from my dogs easily, because I've taught them that they get rewarded that way but I do it on cue ("let mama help"). I wait for them to stop eating (which they do when they hear the cue) and step back, then I take their treat toys and give them the last bits. They also aren't resource guarders by nature, but companion dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Crazy Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) I would NOT hesitate getting further tests done on this pup. IMHO there could be something more going on here.Genetic or otherwise you'd be better off to know where you stand with him health wise first. He sounds very aggressive for a youngster. This behaviour will only escalate & escalate VERY quickly if not sorted out smartly. I wouldn't be waiting around. Health check first, if all's good, secondly a VERY good behaviourist. If this problem is left, again IMHO someone WILL get hurt as the pup grows, so does his confidence & before you know it you have a HUGE, potentially VERY dangerous problem. Edited October 23, 2012 by BC Crazy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fifi Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 With the issue you are describing and the breed, I am in total agreement with Persephone & others in strongly advising you to seek proffesional advice on this behaviour & veterinary assessment. You are on the right track to seek any physiological causes, and by all means desex anyway, but I truly doubt any chance of testosterone based aggression at this age, I can only think of issues in the rearing of the litter or a pup with serious issues of the brain 'hard wiring' kind. fifi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Unlikely this is a testosterone issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 There's a Scandinavian study which suggests desexing will make any aggression issues worse, as aggression is based in fear, and higher testosterone levels reduces fear. Desexing for a resource guarding issue? Really? Who suggested that? Not against desexing at all, but to suggest it as a fix for behavioural issues seems.... misguided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 (edited) Sorry but you need a veterinary behaviourist and you need one NOW. Interfering with a resource guarder while feeding can be counter productive in the extreme. Furthermore, the fact that you have habituated this pup to tolerate YOUR presence while eating should not under any circumstances be interpreted as solving the problem for any other person. I think you need to prepare yourself that this pup could be hard wired for aggression and that the outcome may not be a good one. Personally, a dog displaying this level of aggression this young would be one I'd view as potentially requiring euthanasia. How do you know the other pups don't have issues? If that was the advice of their breeder, I'd be taking it with a grain of salt.<br><br>Why do people source dogs from such breeders?? Edited October 23, 2012 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Yes, see a qualified veterinary behaviourist. I am a big advocate for desexing to improve behaviour in pets. But this dog's problems are not caused by normal testosterone. Desexing won't change this dog. There is no guarantee anything can change this dog. So you need an assessment to work out what if anything can be done, and whether it is feasible to try. Or if you cannnot do that, you could have the dog euthanised, it doesn't sound like a very happy dog that is going to make a good pet. Some pups are just not right in the head for various reasons. It would not be advisable to let this situation go on any further. There is massive potential for this dog to become very dangerous, and you would be liable for anything it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 There's a Scandinavian study which suggests desexing will make any aggression issues worse, as aggression is based in fear, and higher testosterone levels reduces fear. Desexing for a resource guarding issue? Really? Who suggested that? Not against desexing at all, but to suggest it as a fix for behavioural issues seems.... misguided. there's also Dominance aggression and territorial aggression which are not based on fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 They are actually, fear of losing standing in the pack, and fear of what intruders will do once they are on your territory. I'd say 99% of aggression is fear based, and many experts agree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 There's a Scandinavian study which suggests desexing will make any aggression issues worse, as aggression is based in fear, and higher testosterone levels reduces fear. But all aggression is not based in fear. There are different drives that can cause aggression that have nothing at all to do with fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I would see a behaviourist now, a qualified one. This is ringing serious alram bells for me. I have seen puppies like this - yes Labradors - and they should never have been bred. They did not improve. This puppy needs professional help now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazar Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Yes Nekhbet I agree that's why I said it can change a behaviour, not does or does not as it may make no difference at all. Steve I hope it is testosterone based and that his behaviour changes significantly but I am not confident given how early the aggression started and hence, further testing is taking place. Robert Holmes consult will be booked if they are inconclusive or show nothing at all. ok now understand why Lilli said what she said :) thanks for the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 is the pup otherwise biddable/trainable and friendly /socialised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazar Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Why was he purchased from a BYB? There are still lots of people who know nothing about this stuff and when they lost their beloved dog within a week of him being diagnosed with cancer, they looked for a pup to replace him. They are not experts and are doing everything they can to see if his problem can be fixed and are fully aware that he may need to be PTS. This is heart breaking for them as they love him dearly. The vet recommended desexing and the blood testing and even medication. They don't want the meds as they feel it will mask the problem and don't see it as a long term solution. They have engaged a dog trainer who has explained the best and worst possible scenarios and has worked with them and made significant progress. They are taking each step as they go. They are looking for answers that I don't think anyone can definitively supply (unless it is a medical problem that can be diagnosed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazar Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 is the pup otherwise biddable/trainable and friendly /socialised? Yes he is Persephone, he is wonderful. No issues with other animals, kids, cats, chickens. He behaviour was escalating but it is just the odd toy and his food that remain as issues since he started training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazar Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 But you just never now if/when a child will go near him when he has that beloved toy or a tid bit to eat.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Yes he is Persephone, he is wonderful. No issues with other animals, kids, cats, chickens. He behaviour was escalating but it is just the odd toy and his food that remain as issues since he started training. I am so hoping that maybe he was mishandled as a baby , and missed out on vital human contact /feeding protocol ...and that it can be fixed..but I am pessimistic ...and would hate things to settle ..only to return at adulthood. One thing I don't think has been mentioned ..is the TRIANGLE OF TEMPTATION ...LINK this does NOT involve touching dog, or bowl whilst eating..but gets the dog to acknowledge the provider of food ..and to link the two - plus not to eat until certain things happen ... Have a read.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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