Testosterone - How Long Till Levels Drop After Desexing?

[Salukifan]

This pup will grow into a large powerful dog that some people will falsely assume (because of it's breed) will be automatically great with kids. I see such a high level of resource guarding in so young a dog as a disaster waiting to happen. They can never afford to become complacent. Never.

I wonder if their vet even considered the physical impact of desexing the pup so young. My guess is not.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[megan_]

Tell them to read the "exercising a reactive dog" thread in training. Aggression needs to be managed for life. I started that thread as support. I love my girl very much but if I got a pup that displayed true aggression I would return it. I say that as someone who has owned a reactive dog for almost 4 years.

[Flick_Mac]

I would be interested to know if the pup is deaf, blind or maybe has some other underlying condition that might be exacerbating the aggression...

I don't think the desexing will solve the problem and still would agree with everyone about seeing a veterinary behaviourist, but perhaps if the pup feels 'snuck up on' because it is missing a sense/senses this is contributing.

[Bisart Dobes]

That pup needs a serious temperament test ASAP. Desexing is not going to change his behaviour if he has been displaying it from 8 weeks old and how do I know? Because I lay down a lot of money on a dog I get at that age showing the guarding/drive traits I want and will grow. My bitch was guarding the whelping box and my back step at 7 weeks of age, she's 2 years old now and she's no different. Her brother was the same and in fact by 7 months old was ready to take on the world temperament wise. Your BYB sold you a dog with probably a genetic temperament problem. Get the dog assessed by a professional ASAP as well as working out a proper behavioral regime, but desexing is by no means your cure at all in fixing this behavior.

IMHO desexing can change the behaviour of a dog beyond sexual based aggression and know I am not alone in that thinking.

You're buying a lottery ticket on that theory. Unless the dog has massive hormonal problems, which puppies do not, it can help make a dent in the dogs attitude at times. But you dont know until you try it and then it can swing one of three ways - better, worst, or nothing at all.

Frankly, you should have returned the pup to the breeder by 9 weeks with this level of reactivity which is NOT tolerated in the breed. Either that or he is not pure labrador.

**LIKE**

Behaviour modification almost always brings on an esculation of that behaviour - bit like a kid when told not to do something - ofcourse they will and with more gusto. But the behaviour will tend to get worse before it gets better - and a training cycle or the time it takes for the behaviour to become learnt for most dogs is 21 days.

And the extra veterinary testing is mandatory - from what you've written and from what I've seen over years of training and working with Dr Holmes I think your answer will come from more vet tests.

Hope you have a good outcome though.

[Tazar]

Thank you for the feed back.

The pup is not deaf or blind, no obvious signs of any abnormalities.

It really is a wait n see till the blood work is completed which will be early next week.

The little guy is staying with me for the weekend :)

Another question - has anyone had experience with another dog behaving strangely around a pup they have subsequently found to be sick or not quite right? My GSD is VERY interested in this pup (he has been here before today and was the same then too). When the pup is near me the GSD is right there to, everytime. (My dog was warned off and retracted immediately so is not following the pup around). On two occasions (when the pup first arrived at my place and this is his second visit) he gave the pup a little 'get down' kind of noise/growl (which was not aggressive) if he jumped on me. Very strange as he has never behaved like this so I am wondering if he senses something?

NB have lots of different dogs various shapes/sizes/ages visit so he is very use to it.

Appreciate any feed back

thanks

Edited to avoid confusion :)

Edited October 26, 2012 by Tazar

[Nekhbet]

They are actually, fear of losing standing in the pack, and fear of what intruders will do once they are on your territory. I'd say 99% of aggression is fear based, and many experts agree with me.

no the point is more 99% of people like to think that aggression is fear based, makes the whole thing seem more softy wofty and less real that a dog would actually WANT to bite a person through any other reason.

Why is your dog growling to make it get down from you? That is NOT your dogs place to do that. Your dog follows the pup everywhere because you allow it and it's something new to try and corral around the house because you have not taught it otherwise.

Aggression in labradors is not totally unheard of, I know of one labrador male that almost ripped the door off a delivery truck on its property. This pup needs a proper assessment as well as learning NOW what the right thing is to do. Your veterinarian is not a behaviorist and frankly should not be putting a BABY on medication. If needs be I'm happy to take the pup for a few weeks, see how it goes in a pack situation and learn from some other dogs. Gloves, meds and castration is not how to handle a puppy like this at all.

[BJean]

They are actually, fear of losing standing in the pack, and fear of what intruders will do once they are on your territory. I'd say 99% of aggression is fear based, and many experts agree with me.

no the point is more 99% of people like to think that aggression is fear based, makes the whole thing seem more softy wofty and less real that a dog would actually WANT to bite a person through any other reason.

Why is your dog growling to make it get down from you? That is NOT your dogs place to do that. Your dog follows the pup everywhere because you allow it and it's something new to try and corral around the house because you have not taught it otherwise.

Aggression in labradors is not totally unheard of, I know of one labrador male that almost ripped the door off a delivery truck on its property. This pup needs a proper assessment as well as learning NOW what the right thing is to do. Your veterinarian is not a behaviorist and frankly should not be putting a BABY on medication. If needs be I'm happy to take the pup for a few weeks, see how it goes in a pack situation and learn from some other dogs. Gloves, meds and castration is not how to handle a puppy like this at all.

:thumbsup:

[Rebanne]

45 years ago my parents gave away a lab due to his over the top guarding. The truck driver he was given too was very happy with his best mate, could leave his truck anywhere unlocked with the lab in the cabin. I was only a young 'un but this is what I was told when a bit older.

[Tazar]

They are actually, fear of losing standing in the pack, and fear of what intruders will do once they are on your territory. I'd say 99% of aggression is fear based, and many experts agree with me.

no the point is more 99% of people like to think that aggression is fear based, makes the whole thing seem more softy wofty and less real that a dog would actually WANT to bite a person through any other reason.

Why is your dog growling to make it get down from you? That is NOT your dogs place to do that. Your dog follows the pup everywhere because you allow it and it's something new to try and corral around the house because you have not taught it otherwise.Aggression in labradors is not totally unheard of, I know of one labrador male that almost ripped the door off a delivery truck on its property. This pup needs a proper assessment as well as learning NOW what the right thing is to do. Your veterinarian is not a behaviorist and frankly should not be putting a BABY on medication. If needs be I'm happy to take the pup for a few weeks, see how it goes in a pack situation and learn from some other dogs. Gloves, meds and castration is not how to handle a puppy like this at all.

Growling may not have been the right word, he makes a noise (not a nasty type of growl) and noses the pup (who is now 17 weeks old) kind of like 'get down'. It has only happened a couple of times. My dog is not following the pup everywhere or corraling it around the house as the pup is off doing puppy things like playing with the other dogs and having a great old time. I can stop my dog from doing it quite easily and have done so. I just think that my dog is paying more attention to this pup when he is around me, hence my question.

Thank you for your offer, I will pass the information on the owners.

[BC Crazy]

I sure hope the owners of this puppy take up your most generous offer Nekhbet. This whole scenario is a disaster waiting to happen IMO otherwise. Someone/thing WILL get hurt or worse

I too have witnessed aggression in Labradors. It can happen. People think they are ALL friendly but that is not always the case. I think it can pretty much happen in any breed for any number of reasons.

[BlackJaq]

I just read the title of the thread which is Testosterone - How Long Till Levels Drop After De-sexing?, so I was just wondering what changes castrating a 5 year old male would likely cause? I have been trying to convince my partner forever to neuter his occasionally DA entire male and he seems to be getting more aware of the medical issues of not castrating him as he gets older rather than anything else.

I really want to see him neutered so there is no possible way he ever passes on his exceptionally poor temperament (not only DA, he has other issues) but am also wondering if maybe neuter might change some of his behaviour in general? I realize he is older and it will have less impact than with a young dog but still interested in opinions.

Sorry OP, not trying to steal your thread but I thought this is sort of the topic so I might as well ask :)

[juice]

Take the offer, darn generous!

Your dog is 'policing" the pup, something you should be doing,its not your dogs place.

[Tazar]

No problem BlackJaq :) it would be great if there was a definitive answer but there is not.

You can certainly castrate a 5 year old dog. I have heard of dogs that have changed completely, dogs where there has been minor changes, dogs with no changes and dogs who have gotten worse. If he is castrated he won't get testicular cancer so that's a plus.

[BlackJaq]

Yes, I have been pushing the "prostate" angle since my OH has had a major prostate scare himself (despite only being in his early 20s).

I am quietly hoping that the dog will become a little more sociable if he ends up getting the snip. At the moment he is only allowed contact with my dogs through a chain link fence or on leash and with me present, since his behaviour can be unpredictable. Sometimes he is quite tolerant, sometimes he will snap and "punish" a dog quite violently for minor transgressions. Not ideal for the dog but my own dogs are honestly more important to me than this dog, and his quality of life is such that if he were mine I would have had him PTS, not to mention the potential risk to other animals and people. I would not want to be in charge of this dog, legally speaking.

I may also be overreacting but I refuse to be in an area with the dog off leash since he has reacted violently to OH in the past when provoked in a minor manner (sent off lounge etc). To be honest, the dog's temperament is way too strong for OH to handle as he is being very inconsistent and soft. He is definitely not pet quality in any sense of the word but was and still is OH's first and only dog so he is not prepared to PTS and acts like neutering the dog will somehow affect the health of his own junk...

Edited October 26, 2012 by BlackJaq

[Tazar]

acts like neutering the dog will somehow affect the health of his own junk...

There are so many men who think the same.......

Sounds like you have your hands full, I was going to ask how you went with male and female entire dogs in the same house!

[Tazar]

Your dog is 'policing" the pup, something you should be doing,its not your dogs place.

I am doing the policing, don't worry but my dog NEVER behaves like this, it is so strange...

[BlackJaq]

Well OH's dog is not allowed inside anymore since the lounge episode as I was honestly getting a little worried about myself and my dogs. Before that they had chains attached to the wall above their individual beds, so everybody could sleep inside without being able to get to each other. Not too different from crating, really, but a lot cheaper and all the dogs were happy with this situation as far as I can tell (I am saying this because I have been told that this solution is somehow inherently inhumane before, yet people seem to be happy to crate their dogs over night or use other means of separating dogs, especially entires?)

My bitch is a lot younger than OH's boy and he had the same issues well before she came along, so I don't think it is sexual frustration over her causing his reactions. All of my other dogs in the past were de-sexed. He did ok with my German Coolie girl who was very submissive and seemed not to "set him off" much. He still took some minor skin off her and was allowed to play loose less and less as he got older and incidents increased. Sadly this dog passed away from a snake bite and his behaviour has become too unpredictable for me to feel comfortable with him and my dogs loose together.

Foxy is now spayed so there are no more entires around, only another spayed female.

I have to say, OH's dog is generally well behaved (I used to do a lot of training with him when he was younger/less reactive), he did not whine or fret much even when Foxy was on heat and he knows a lot of tricks and performs them very well. In a fenced area his recall is very good and he is generally pleasant to be around except when he is reacting to a "misdemeanor" on anyone's part. He is NOT safe with strangers as far as we can tell from his behaviour from a distance (obedient but very stiff, stays quiet but it seems he is waiting for them to get that little bit too close and even when he does not fixate them he is extremely aware at all times) and we have not asked anybody he is reacting to to come close enough to find out how serious he is. Somebody climbed our fence when we were still living in town and left behind part of their backpack (in his mouth), lucky he did not get them by the pants

I would like to see OH at least see a behaviourist with the dog but he does not have much time or inclination to do so. He is ok with how the dog is kept now (outside in a large run of his own and goes to work with OH since the family run their own business) and I am not physically able to restrain him if necessary since he is more than half my weight. I do not open the door to his run EVER now.

[BlackJaq]

He actually growls on contact with his testicles/butt. At some stage it did cross my mind that maybe he has a physical problem, but he seems very healthy and gets vaccinated yearly and regularly receives all other health care as well (worming, flea treatments when necessary, sees the vet for things like torn nails etc). As far as I can remember he has been to the vet at least a handfull of times each year. OH said he was going to bring it up next time we are there but I don't think he ever did.

The "lounge incident" happened after OH sat down on the lounge next to him and accidentally touched or came too close to his hind end, now that I think about it. He growled and OH asked him to get off the lounge and go to his bed. The dog then growled louder/more seriously and its hard to say exactly what happened next, I wasn't looking. When I looked up the dog was on the lounge on his hind legs and OH had him pinned against the wall by the scruff of the neck/throat to stop himself being bitten...

[Tazar]

That is pretty full on behaviour. I guess there isn't much you can do if your OH is happy as he is. I am guessing he (OH) won the battle on the couch.

The research I have done indicates that desexing makes a positive or no change in behaviour more often than making it worse.

I know of a dog who was threatening all the members of the family, standing over then if they were on the ground or in bed growling and snarling flat out and was 8 years old. He was desexed and they never had another problem with him.

You just never know.....

[eyeopener]

Hi,

Looking for additional information on testosterone levels after desexing puppy, 15 weeks old, and subsequent experience on changes in aggression levels as a result. Have reseached with average saying 2-6 weeks for levels to drop and 50-60% resulting in change in aggressive behaviour.

Puppy displaying severe resource guarding issues since at least 8 weeks of age (eyes glazed minimum, 1/2 hour recovery time) and was very well developed sexually, hence early desexing.

A behaviour modification progam has been in place for the last 3 weeks with significant changes but underlying issue still there, very unpredictable and again escalating since desexing Behaviour modification to continue with the assistance of medication at vets recommentaion for maximum of 4 weeks.

Just looking for anything further anyone may be able to add to help this little lab guy out.

thanks in advance :)

I would be surprised if desexing has much if any affect on this particular dog at all. Yes I would deff desex but when would be based on when was most suitable health & emotion wise for that particular pup. I would be looking into getting some serous behavior modification happening now the sooner the better. Find a good behaviorist or just a damn good trainer who has dealt with similar cases before & incorporate training, exercise, daily routine & a good vets guidenes on the health n desexing angles & form a plan n stick to it long enough to know if it's working or not.