Training The "out" - Advice Appreciated.

[huski]

I saw Steve Courtney when I first got Jarrah fresh from the pound about 4 years ago, and his methods of fixing the behaviour problems she had then worked incredibly well, and I know he is also very experienced in working and teaching dogs in drive, so to get his help is a very appealing option. The difficulty in that ofc is that he's always so heavily booked I may be waiting a looong time for an appointment.

Hi Wobbly

The wait time isn’t tooooo long and you can often bypass the wait time and bring it right down if you opt for an urgent appointment, but yes the standard wait is a few weeks. We have people travel from everywhere to see Steve and most get back home and want to rebook for soon as they can, he is pretty popular :laugh:

The other potential option is that we are going to a seminar by Glenn Cooke in about 2 weeks, I believe he also has experience in the same field, I think for my purposes he would be a very good candidate to help us too. The wait may not be as long as it would for Steve.

I hope the seminar goes well but just thought I would comment that the training in drive program that Steve teaches is that of his own development, so you won’t find “his” version anywhere else, although I am sure that doesn’t mean that there is no one else that can help you, just that the TID program that you would have heard about is unique to Steve and K9Pro :)

[megan_]

But the TID program isn't taking new participants until winter?

[huski]

But the TID program isn't taking new participants until winter?

That's true for distance learning, but we have lessons here each day for training in drive clients. :)

[Wobbly]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for all the tips & ideas, much appreciated.

Unfortunately I didn't get to see my regular trainer at training today, I had a small surgery yesterday, so my husband banned me from leaving the house today. I was pretty keen to go to training anyway, but husband can be implacably sensible sometimes. So I haven't yet had the opportunity to talk to her yet.

Hey Ally,

She is a really fun dog! When I first got her, she was a bit (a lot) overwhelming for me, hectic was definitely the word. She was a pretty tough dog for a novice owner, kind of like putting a learner driver in a ferrari I think. XD With age though (I think she is about 5 & half now) and advice from people more experienced than myself, she has become a really great dog. These days tug is the only thing that really hypes her to those stratospheric heights anymore, her incredible enthusiasm for tugging is positively contagious - she is a really awesome dog.

I'm not looking to do any kind of competition, so with the exception of using tug as an emergency recall reward, I haven't used it as part of any training program. It does have great side benefits like ensuring her focus is on me in very distracting environments and suchlike, but ultimately it's simply for fun, it's the bonding/play outlet that we most enjoy together. Her love for the tug does mean we have a world of possibilities for training, and I think I might like to explore that further.

Kavik,

I guess we can both console ourselves with the fact that the mistakes we've made give us really fantastic opportunites to learn lots in the course of fixing them! XD

Noisy,

looks like I will be doing the same as you and Boo for a little while. Fetch is not as interactive as tug and so it engages both Jarrah and myself less, but so long as I know tug is in our future, we can happily make do with fetch as a substitute for the time being. We are getting good at our new fetch rules now.

Huski,

After some consideration I've decided to go with Steve again, we had really amazing success with him before, I might have ended up in a lunatic asylum except for his help (OK that's maybe an exaggeration, but his advice for Jarrah management really made a world of difference for us back in the day when she was a bit uncontrollable). So it makes sense to go with him again. Thinking on my schedule for the next little while, the waiting period is actually good - I have some major surgeries coming up over the next few months (prognosis is excellent but Dec/Jan will be neccessarily quiet for me), so my own waiting period might end up being even longer than Steve's is. I will have to contact my surgeon next week to figure out when I will be all OK for vigorous activity before I can book an appt for Steve, once I get the complete low down on all of the surgery recovery times I will shoot you guys an email.

Well in the interim we have our new fetch guidelines to practice to perfection, so we have stuff to keep us busy there, I will keep you updated with any new developments.

Thanks again everyone for all the advice & support. :D

[Lablover]

Sorry if I am repeating suggestions in the thread, but I would suggest concentrating on releasing the article.

I have had dry dog food nearby while I sat with the dog in front. I use food as it so easy, quick and many many rewards are possible.

[Wobbly]

Thanks for the suggestion Lab lover, food sort of worked for me a bit depending on where she is on the arousal spectrum, she is incredibly foood driven in most circumstance, but food is generally far lower on her agenda than tug.

But....

I do have a really awesome update:

We went to the Bull breeeds seminar yesterday, and I showed Glenn Cooke, the trainer there, Jarrah's tugging & explained the situation.

We both noted at one point when I had my hands covering a lot of the frisbee when she was being offered it, that she is very deliberately careful about missing my hands. Although she does mess up occasionally, on the whole she does put in a good effort to scope out a good hand-free bite spot (I must've accidently taught her that with my squallings when she has got me XD). All in all that's not actually something we need be concerned about, she's learnt that most important rule despite me.

So Glenn showed me how to put just a little bit of pressure on her check collar to make her release. I've always been very careful to not correct her during tug, since I don't want to reduce drive with corrections, but the way he showed me it's not enough pressure to be a correction, it's more like putting a restraint on her, which ofc serves to make her more keen. "D

So I can practise that, and after all my surgery stuffs is done (very long recovery period - March/April I think maybe before I can really be leaping around again?), I will arrange a consult with him to make sure we can really perfect our game to be the best it can be. Or maybe I can send my husband along to him with her sooner? Anyhow, either way the prognosis is excellent. "D

I am delighted with this outcome. :D :D :D

[melzawelza]

Thanks for the suggestion Lab lover, food sort of worked for me a bit depending on where she is on the arousal spectrum, she is incredibly foood driven in most circumstance, but food is generally far lower on her agenda than tug.

But....

I do have a really awesome update:

We went to the Bull breeeds seminar yesterday, and I showed Glenn Cooke, the trainer there, Jarrah's tugging & explained the situation.

We both noted at one point when I had my hands covering a lot of the frisbee when she was being offered it, that she is very deliberately careful about missing my hands. Although she does mess up occasionally, on the whole she does put in a good effort to scope out a good hand-free bite spot (I must've accidently taught her that with my squallings when she has got me XD). All in all that's not actually something we need be concerned about, she's learnt that most important rule despite me.

So Glenn showed me how to put just a little bit of pressure on her check collar to make her release. I've always been very careful to not correct her during tug, since I don't want to reduce drive with corrections, but the way he showed me it's not enough pressure to be a correction, it's more like putting a restraint on her, which ofc serves to make her more keen. "D

So I can practise that, and after all my surgery stuffs is done (very long recovery period - March/April I think maybe before I can really be leaping around again?), I will arrange a consult with him to make sure we can really perfect our game to be the best it can be. Or maybe I can send my husband along to him with her sooner? Anyhow, either way the prognosis is excellent. "D

I am delighted with this outcome. :D :D :D

I missed seeing this happen on the day somehow! That's awesome, Glenn really is a winner - so glad you got the opportunity to speak to him about it! :D

[Wobbly]

Hey Mel, yeah I asked him about it at the end. He didn't even need to ask about food, he knew that wasn't going to work :laugh: he also knew making the tug "dead" wasn't going to work for me - Jarrah is much stronger than me, I couldn't stop her shaking a tug if my life depended on it. I was pretty impressed with his approach - he had her dropping the frisbee a few times, I'm really looking forward to working with him.

He also said I'd done a really great job with her, which was particularly great to hear, because I have many & varied self recriminations about the things I've done wrong (chiefly with the out). It's awesome to hear praise from an experienced, knowledgeable trainer - at least I've done some stuff well.

I also just found out about a trainer in the US called Michael Ellis, he's amazing, I spent the last week watching all his ewechewb videos. I will probably watch them all again a few times until the dvds I ordered from him arrive.

Here's my favourite clip (the first one I saw that made me go look for all the rest of his stuff), I'm not sure if it's possible to get Jarrah to this stage, but I'd love to have a go at it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpjCAJ7wghY

Ellis has hours worth of youtube lectures up about training your dog to get it like this, I wish I'd found him years ago. There's a lot of stuff he says that rings true for me that I have never heard from any other source too eg - "bite drive", that's not an accepted behavioural term, just something Ellis finds notable enough about his malinois to give it a name, and I see it with Jarrah too. She's happy just to bite the tug, she doesn't need to be chewing it, or chasing it, or tugging with it, as long as I'm holding it she's happy to just hold fast to it. It's really satisfying to her to just clamp down on it - which is partly why the dead tug approach has failed for me (also the fact she can "force" me to play when I'm trying to make the tug "dead" if she wants, because I'm not strong enough to hold it still against her). He says the best dogs have bite drive, unfortunately he didn't explain why in the clip, so while I know I have the best kind of dog, I'm not exactly sure why or how to use it. Poor Jarrah, that's the story of her life with me really. Such a good dog is a bit wasted on me since my aspirations don't really go beyond a good game of tug, a long bush walk and general housepet stuff, and my training knowledge is about on par with my aspirations. XD

I think what I love about Ellis so much is that his advice is really spot on for the type of dog Jarrah is - he talks about the best dogs being like "crackheads" in their raw form, and Jarrah was a bit like this (not now that she's older, but when she was younger, crackhead would have been a perfect description). When you have a dog with this kind of energy level and ease of arousal to massively high levels of excitement, it can be tough to find the right management methods. I muddled along with it by myself, I think I did an OK job, but if I found Ellis' clips earlier I would have done a better job. Mercifully as Jarrah's got older her on & off switches became appropriate and she only gets into her mental hyper state when I ask for it, so it's no problem now. But still, it's really lovely to find modern training methods are perfect for the type of dog Jarrah is. It's also really great reinforcement for me too - to know I really do have a truly amazing dog here - people breed for years trying to produce dogs with this level of drive & I just waltzed into the pound and got one, not really knowing what I was looking for, just pure, jammy good luck. I've only come to realise it's good luck now, back when she was totally unmanageable I would have done anything for a bit of calm from her.

Anyway I have never really used her drive for more than fun, and emergency recalls when needed - my husband took her for a walk today and there were 2 wild pigs at our walk spot! Wild pigs in Kariong?? I have no idea what that's about, never seen them before - emergency frisbee recall in operation at it's very best today though apparently.

I'm really looking forward to working with Glenn to get a good out so I can use the tug as a reward instead of food, she works really well for food anyway, so no biggy if it happens slowly. I've a notion it will work out for us pretty fast though - when I asked Glenn, he said absolutely we can do this, I got the impression that from his perspective this isn't going to be a problem to fix.

So all in all, I'm pretty delighted. "D "D "D

[Kavik]

I am glad it is going well Wobbly! It sounds like the Michael Ellis stuff will be helpful - I have his tugging DVD and he is explains things well and is easy to understand. It is so awesome that he has so many free videos up as well.

[huski]

There are lots of ways to handle training an out IMO, I use a ball on a rope with Wisdom for obedience work, when we started using it with her having a ball as a reward was relatively new to her and she had a really high value for it and wasn't outing with the speed and responsiveness she would out the tug with. Steve told me not to use collar pressure to achieve the fast out as it could get the dog to out but doesn't really address the conflict that exists between the dog and handler when the dog isn't outing. She has a super out with the ball now and we can enjoy the game together much more too! :)

[Wobbly]

Yeah Huski, it's true it definitely doesn't address the conflict, but I had a notion that once the out was achieved on command, then we could work on getting her to understand that giving the toy back is a GREAT thing because it starts a whole new game.

Now I've been listening to Michael Ellis' lectures I realise there are so many things I have done wrong on this issue, I am such a dufus....

Just off the top of my head -

- I taught her the fun thing is the toy itself, rather than playing with me with the toy just happening to be the thing we were using to play.

- I allowed massive reinforcement and conditioning of the above point by letting her self satisfy by chewing the toy.

- I allowed possessiveness - she thinks the object of the game is possession of the toy, so her idea of playing is either shes trying to get the toy off me or vice versa (she'd almost explode with happiness if I chased her when she has the tug I reckon XD)

I am not quite sure how to recondition her on these points - she's had years of conditioning at massive levels of drive to be like she is now. Alas all entirely due to my own lack of knowledge about dog psychology, I do need professional help to rid me of that incumbent ignorance in order to rehab my dog's attitude to tug.

Another thing I learnt that's salient I think is there is what Ellis calls an "active response" and a "reactive response" to a reward - the active response is when the dog offers behaviours in hopes of a reward, the reactive response is when the dog only offers behaviours when it knows there's a reward available (saw it, smells it, or past experience of consistent rewarding in a given context). It seems like a subtle difference in words, and it doesn't look too different either but psychologically in the dog's head, it's a huge difference. Jarrah is a bit of a mix of the two, ideally she would be purely active with no reactiveness though. This is one that's easy to work on at least, I just have to make sure she never knows a reward is available until she gets it.

On the really positive side, I do think she can be reconditioned and rehabilitated and I am going to learn A LOT in attempting it. If I hadn't made these mistakes and she was perfect at tug I wouldn't have the need or opportunity to learn this process and psychology in the depth that I am attempting to now, and I am really enjoying the learning, so it's not a bad situation to be in.

This is really all about educating me rather than educating my dog. I am really interested to learn Steve's approach, as well as interested in how Glenn's method works out. As you say there are many methods that can work, so I would like to explore as much as I can and learn from both Glenn and Steve since they are the 2 best behaviourists I know of, I am sure I will learn tonnes from both of them, so I'm booking appointments with both of them! I am really looking forward to both appointments to see both approaches and hopefully between the 2 of them they can manage to pound a little knowledge into my brain!

[Kavik]

Don't worry Wobbly - I've made the exact same 3 mistakes! :laugh: as well as having used too many 'misses' in initial training.

[Wobbly]

And lastly, but I think really importantly, Jarrah is an incredibly FUN dog to play with, the energy and focus she puts into tug is infectious - and when you play with her you end up geting as rapt in the game as she is, so I'm certain that both Steve and Glenn will both enjoy playing with her enormously (if they do that) when they assess us. "D

[Wobbly]

Don't worry Wobbly - I've made the exact same 3 mistakes! :laugh: as well as having used too many 'misses' in initial training.

Haha Kavik, I'm glad I'm not alone in this one! It does give us the opportunity to learn a lot though when we try to rectify our mistakes!

Have you managed to rehabilitate this at all? I'd love to hear the progress you've made.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Wobbly

[Kavik]

I think points 2 and 3 are related - self satisfying and possession - and this shows itself with my dog in the retrieve. So I reward a good happy fast retrieve with a good tug session, and I use a lot of verbal praise when tugging too. His retrieve has improved a lot, though there are still times when it needs work. I also work on his engaging with me to start the game, so when he looks at me I give a verbal marker and start the game, instead of getting the toy out first.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Kavik

[Wobbly]

Yeah, I agree, those points are all so inter-related.

Sounds like you are way ahead of me Kavik!!! Awesome job, it's great to hear you have been successful in working to undo these kind of training mistakes, maybe there's hope for me yet.

I'd just be happy with a retrieve, never mind a good fast one. XD We had it for a bit there I was swapping a fetch for food, and she would bring it right back to me and drop it to gobble the food, it was all going really nicely a few weeks ago. But then I made the mistake of playing tug with the fetch toy.... with the result (that I really should have predicted) that food doesn't really work as an exchange for that toy anymore, it's a tug toy to her mind now. :laugh:

Back to square 1 there....

In terms of her engagement though, I guess she's pretty good in that aspect - when she has a toy in her mouth, she is always looking at me, you know that really cheeky looks dogs get when you see a little bit of the whites of their eye? I think of it as the "mischief mode" look, for all the world it's like she's telling me "Chase me! chase me, C'mon PLEASE chase me!". And she stays a step out my reach, she's totally expert at staying just out of reach.

She's a very good trainer of humans, she knows my toy drive is high enough that if she stays just out of my reach eventually I will probably move towards her to close the gap. If I don't take the bait & move towards her, then she ups the ante a bit and actually drops the toy knowing I probably won't be able to help myself so it's very likely to get me to go over to her, but ofc as soon as I've made my move she picks the toy right back up again so I can't get it!

It seems to me that between me & my dog, Jarrah is by far the more successful trainer! I guess she can be proud of what a well trained human she has. I am like putty in her paws. XD

O dear lord, I really do need some help here don't I. :laugh:

I'm sure Glenn and Steve will have a great laugh at how well trained she has me!

[Kavik]

Yeah, I agree, those points are all so inter-related.

Sounds like you are way ahead of me Kavik!!! Awesome job, it's great to hear you have been successful in working to undo these kind of training mistakes, maybe there's hope for me yet.

I'd just be happy with a retrieve, never mind a good fast one. XD We had it for a bit there I was swapping a fetch for food, and she would bring it right back to me and drop it to gobble the food, it was all going really nicely a few weeks ago. But then I made the mistake of playing tug with the fetch toy.... with the result (that I really should have predicted) that food doesn't really work as an exchange for that toy anymore, it's a tug toy to her mind now. :laugh:

Back to square 1 there....

In terms of her engagement though, I guess she's pretty good in that aspect - when she has a toy in her mouth, she is always looking at me, you know that really cheeky looks dogs get when you see a little bit of the whites of their eye? I think of it as the "mischief mode" look, for all the world it's like she's telling me "Chase me! chase me, C'mon PLEASE chase me!". And she stays a step out my reach, she's totally expert at staying just out of reach.

She's a very good trainer of humans, she knows my toy drive is high enough that if she stays just out of my reach eventually I will probably move towards her to close the gap. If I don't take the bait & move towards her, then she ups the ante a bit and actually drops the toy knowing I probably won't be able to help myself so it's very likely to get me to go over to her, but ofc as soon as I've made my move she picks the toy right back up again so I can't get it!

It seems to me that between me & my dog, Jarrah is by far the more successful trainer! I guess she can be proud of what a well trained human she has. I am like putty in her paws. XD

O dear lord, I really do need some help here don't I. :laugh:

I'm sure Glenn and Steve will have a great laugh at how well trained she has me!

Well, I've been working on this for over a year :laugh: it has taken us a while, and at the start it was frustrating. Sounds like Jarrah is much better on the engagement aspect than Kaos naturally - if i let Kaos win the toy he would just stand there not looking at me. Still happens sometimes, and I wait him out, but most of the time he will now bring it back to engage me straight away.

[Wobbly]

Wow that's awesome Kavik! Really inspiring, hopefully we will get there too! I seem to remember you were using Steve's TID distance learning package, is that right? Awesome that it's working so well for you. I think I need in person guidance though, Jarrah is my only dog in adulthood so my experience & practical skills are REALLY lacking, I do need expert guidance to identify and correct me where I'm going wrong.

I wish I could say what it was that got me good engagement from Jarrah, but honestly I don't know, I think it might just be how she's wired naturally? If I did anything to facilitate it, it was inadvertent. It might have helped that often when she's bumping a toy against me to get my attention when I'm busy with other stuff I ignore her, so when I do give her my attention she takes full advantage of it?

I had wondered if it's overkill to see both Steve and Glenn, but it seems to me the best way of getting a really comprehensive understanding of anything is to learn from multiple sources. It's too hard to choose between them - I've seen them both in action now and they both have earned my utmost respect as the top trainers in their field. I'm lucky enough to live within reasonable driving distance of both of them, so I'm going to take the opportunity to see them both.

If only I could drive to California & get help from Mike Ellis as well! I am trying to teach Jarrah to do heeling similar to how he does it, I love how when he sidesteps the dog sidesteps in perfect unison with him, and does it with the biggest, happiest grin, I do actually get a good amount of enthusiasm from Jarrah with food rewards, so we are just using food to learn that atm, we are progressing slowly due to my inexperience, but we are definitely making good progress. "D

[Kavik]

No, I am not using Steve's TID package, I am primarily using Susan Garrett's ideas, though I have borrowed a bit from Ellis as well. It sounds like Steve's would suit you though, I have a different dog and different issues.

The engagement could be a natural thing - I think part of my problem is that Kaos is a naturally somewhat independent dog and a bit of a tough fellow, not as biddable as some, has proven challenging to work with for sure! Keeping his attention has been my biggest issue, now that I have figured out how to do that better we are having much more success!

Edited December 13, 2012 by Kavik

[Wobbly]

Oh I haven't looked at Susan Garrett's stuff, I will have to have a look see. "D

Haha the Kelpies can be so very independent minded can't they. That toughness & independence is such a Kelpie hallmark, I guess they're vital qualities for a succesful outback stock work dog. I love the energy and flair of Kelpies, they're amazing dogs to watch in action. I always admire people who create well-balanced, well behaved kelpies in the city or suburbia, I know that's not an easy task given the breed's energy levels & mindset.

You'd think Jarrah being a Pit-Bully type sort of dog would be a bit of a tough nut, but she's not at all. While she does have some drive, she's a total wussy softie. I remember one time when I was first introducing her to horses (last thing I want is dog who wants to chase stock) and we stopped the car in the paddock and opened the doors and one of the horses stuck his head in the car to see if we had food for him, Jarrah leapt out and hid under the car, she looks so tough with her big, broad Bully head, but really she's a such big girls blouse. XD