Training The "out" - Advice Appreciated.

[persephone]

I was almost afraid to click that link, I really had images of cows boobs in my head

ermmm, yes- imitation cow udders !

Thanks :)

[megan_]

They are the plastics bits from milking machines - so they have a teat shape.

[Wobbly]

I just simply offered her the other ball and I waited until i dropped him and then said "drop it" and removed both the balls and gave her some chicken. it's effective enough for me and I get the toys off her now but she's very easy to train and very focused on pleasing, I'm not sure about your dog and it's trainability.

Yeah Mixeduppup, its actually more a problem with my trainability I fear, the dog is fine, she's really good in fact, I've always thought a good trainer could do a lot with her. It's me who gets easily confused. XD

Yes our dogs have the opposite problem - I would kill to have your problem :laugh:

I wouldn't use the udder tug for this issue - it is quite soft and squishy and exciting (one of my dog's favourites!) and quite difficult to make completely dead - they can still self satisfy by chewing it. I would use one of the more 'traditional' shaped tugs such as those K9Pro sells - they would be ideal for this.

Yeah it's a good problem to have - for me it means that I have a fail safe recall, I'm really happy she has it, it's one of those features that make the bully breeds (and all the terriers) great pets for the average owner - we may not be much at training or dog psychology, but we don't have to be, the dog compensates for what we lack. I know if there's a cat across the other side of a busy road and she gets loose or anything potentially awful like that, I can easily get her to come.

Jarrah was hesitant to tug initially too (got her from the pound, not much idea of her background really), I read a bit about drive training, went to a K9Force drive training seminar (where she behaved abominably and I was utterly mortified, I'd only had her a month or so at that point I think XD) and applied as much of it as I was able. Earlier on in the piece I really didn't think I'd have that much success, so I'm quite amazed at how insatiably keen she's become about it to be honest. She is frisbee mental, she yaps her head off as soon as I take it out. It's definitely a breed thing I think, I'm no great dog motivator, it's inherent in her.

OK check on the "Udder" tug being udderly (sorry, tried to resist that, failed) inappropriate for us. The synthetic one you've linked looks perfect for us.

These are a harder tug that is more durable than any other and great for a dog that wont out!

I will order one tonight.

Since it's "great for dogs who won't out" I think I will go the middle road in terms of her drive for it - I will only play with it in the house, so she doesn't get to associate it with the sheer awesomeness of swim fetch and go totally nuts for it, but I won't leave it in her box or let her have free access to it either, because I don't want it to be a "take it or leave it" kind of toy to her. That way I can increase or decrease her desire for it more easily as needed (in theory anyway...).

an udder tug ...sounds a bit gross......

My old Kieran would ALWAYS give me something if I told him .. "I'll put it here for later" ... and I would place it somewhere in sight, but unreachable ..that way he knew where it was ..and so still 'had it' ..sort of .... I don't think that's being anthropomorphic ...it worked, anyway :p

Hahah I don't think that's anthropomorphising - maybe he saw it the same way you did, it's funny how they're amazing at picking up what we mean from what we do. Maybe what your action said to him was the doggy equivalent of "Don't worry, it's not going anywhere, you can even keep your eye on it", so he understood his precious resource to be safe even if not in his direct possession? Wouldn't work for Jarrah, she'd sit there and gaze longingly & fixedly at it, and probably yap until I got annoyed enough with her to give it to her. Which is what happens when balls roll under the sofa here. XD

I was almost afraid to click that link, I really had images of cows boobs in my head

I was kind of thinking it might be made of udder leather or something. XD

OK so I will order the bar tug tonight! I'm going to have a little play with some of her low drive toys tonight to see if I can apply any of this to her with them. She's actually trying to entice me to play now by pushing her ball into my leg. XD

[itsadogslife]

Here is a video on teaching the "drop" or "out". This might be helpful.

[Wobbly]

Great video, thankyou. There are so many different methods that work effectively. I'm still going to go with Megan's idea, since it's so easy to incorporate into a normal evening play session, but I will think about how I can add some of this guys ideas too - I'm just concerned if I do it as he does it, using the same comand I'd be creating confusion with what the Aus command means to her - does it mean food on the floor or does it mean the tug is no longer fun.

In other news, I just realised the synthetic tugs ("great for dogs who won't out") float as well!

Once I get a good "out" in the house with the synthetic tug, I might substitute it for frisbees on our walks - if they float that means they're perfect for swim-fetch, so I can maybe make it swim-fetch-tug again. I was sad to have to give up the tug portion of frisbee swim-fetch, but I just couldn't have her winning all the time like she does with the frisbee, the synthetic tug can eliminate that problem and let me decide whether she wins or not. The tugs are also easier and cheaper to source (the frisbees I get shipped from the US), if this works the way I'm hoping, the age of the frisbee may be drawing to a close. Yay for the imminent dawn of the synthetic tug ("great for dogs who won't out"). XD

Hurry up with my order Aust. Post!

Edited October 26, 2012 by Wobbly

[Wobbly]

O yeah, I tried with the balls and kongs, but I have to actually reach into her mouth to get them so there's just no way of making them dead.

She did eventually drop it (and ofc I missed the exact moment so didn't get a "good" in fast enough. So once she drops the ball, I reach for it and her whole face lights up like she's thinking, "OMG you really gonna play more with me??? Yay!" and she grabs the ball faster than me. Experiment not really successful yet.

It's terrible that my dog outwits me so often, I can't even imagine what having one of the superbrain dogs like a Collie, Kelpie or Poodle must be like.

[sheena]

I havn't read the whole post, but I am just wondering why you have called it "out" & not "give" or "ta". I guess you can call it anything you like, but to me & my dog "out" means to move away from me & I use "ta" to ask her to give me what is in her mouth. I think you could probably fix this problem if you clicker trained your dog & taught it some tricks via "shaping", then you could "shape" it to give you back the toy/object.

[Kavik]

I havn't read the whole post, but I am just wondering why you have called it "out" & not "give" or "ta". I guess you can call it anything you like, but to me & my dog "out" means to move away from me & I use "ta" to ask her to give me what is in her mouth. I think you could probably fix this problem if you clicker trained your dog & taught it some tricks via "shaping", then you could "shape" it to give you back the toy/object.

A lot of people use "Out" for give/let go of an object, it is a very common cue for that behaviour :)

[Erny]

I'd start by training "out" with something she isn't absolutely crazy about.

Try a tug, start with "yes", play a little game (not getting her too hyped up, 10 sec max, calm voice etc) and then hold the tug tightly against your legs horizontally. The tug is now "dead" and she can't have fun with it. Don't say anything at all and wait for her to get bored and let go (this could take a looooooong time, but persevere). As soon as she lets out say "out, good out" and give her the command to start playing (ie use "yes").

Rinse and repeat a few times. After a lot of repetitions leave a second or two between "out" and "yes" so that she learns that she has to wait for your permission to start tugging again. If she starts jumping turn your back calmly (stand against a wall so she can't get tot he tug) and as soon as she stops jumping "yes" and play again.

She should cotton on that:

i) The game is started by you with a "yes"

ii) The game ends with "out". The sooner she lets go, the sooner she gets to play again.

This should then translate to other toys like the frisbee.

ETA: You can get "bar" tugs that are firm so it is easier to play "dead tug".

Perfect! Thank you so much for taking the time to write this Megan, it's exactly the sort of direction I need. I am going to read it a few times today to make sure the process is firmly cemented in my head. Between your explanation and Kavik's suggestions I think I can do this! :D

OK I need to pick a new word that means playtime starts now. I like Persephone's idea of giving her a treat too - she knows all about treat training, and loves it. Would a treat after "out, good out" be appropriate too? "Good" means "treat incoming" in our world. My training is bribe based, maybe not the best way, but it's always worked for me. XD

As Megan knows, this is some of what Pro-K9 teaches in our classes. The essence of it is allowing the dog to make the choice to relinquish the tug and initially learning that the sooner s/he does the sooner the game will begin again. By making the tug 'dead', the dog initially tends to become puzzled and let's go OR the dog loses interest (much depends on the dog's drive). If the dog loves the tug more than food treat, giving a treat isn't absolutely necessary and I guess is not something I've brought into my training regime because response speed through drive has always been my aim. When I decide to end the session I give a 'finish' command (ie off-switch) but it is then that I normally follow through with giving a food treat. I don't allow free access to the chosen tug toy because it is *my* tug, is something I control but happily *share* it and the game that goes with it, with my dog when he is working with and for me.

Keep the game rules simple. A word that permits the start of the game (i.e. an on-switch); and word that pauses the game (ie a relinquish command) and a word that finishes the game (ie an off-switch).

Edited October 26, 2012 by Erny

[Wobbly]

Hi Sheena,

I'm going to use aus (german for out}, because it's familiar to me in this context (German dog owning friends, training vids etc) so will be easy for me to use naturally, and won't be confused with anything else, which I guess are the main things about picking a good word for a command.

Hi Erny,

Thanks for the input. I have never taught her an off switch. My bad - she was certainly a dog who could have used one when she was younger! Better late than never though, i will put it in here.

You're right about keeping it simple, if it's too complex I will get overwhelmed & put it in the too hard basket. For the balls and kongs, I couldn't make them go dead at all, and similarly, it's very difficult to make the frisbee dead too, there's always some enticing floppyness about it because of it's size and composition.

Her order of toy/food preference is:

1) Frisbee [swim/Fetch, toy she doesn't have free access to, used only on walks and always with high excitement and fun factor]

2) Food

3) Balls/kongs/rope tug [Her toys, she has constant access to these, they live in her toy box]

It's very easy to manipulate where any given toy falls on this scale as I found when I left her with friends to look after for a week. They gave her unrestricted access to the frisbee around the house and it dropped in value from a number 1 on the list to a number 3. When I returned it only took a few days of restricted access and high excitement fun play to re-establish it as a very high value resource again. I am hoping (though I'm not sure) that I can put the nylon bar tug in number 1 place along with the frisbee, after I get the "out" in place.

I'm pretty clear on what I want (it certainly helps to write it down here to clarify it in my mind too):

-I have come to rely on the frisbee drive to be strong enough that it holds her interest and focus above everything else for keeping her attention on me in very distracting environments (other dogs playing excitedly, cats teasing her etc). This has become such a fantastic control method that I really want to preserve it, above all else.

-Beyond that, playing is one of the best things about having a dog to me, and this is the game we both enjoy together the most. Getting the frisbee off her can be a bit of a fun and challenging game in itself, but an effective "out" would be better for the control aspect. Play for dogs and humans is so often practice for handling serious scenarios in a safe, fun way, so I'd like to make the play really reflect the ideal behaviour I want from her in a true life serious situation. Where we are with it now, it's adequate for control but not ideal.

I'm getting to it late because the current state of affairs is adequate for control. I never wanted to devalue the Frisbee fun at all so I never got to the "out" with it. Really I never expected her to build the drive she has - when we first started it didn't look like she was a high toy drive kind of dog, so I didn't forsee that "out" would be an issue. How very, very mistaken I was. XD

You know she was quite a difficult dog when I got her as an adolescent from the pound, we did see Steve K9pro in the early days - we really, really needed to! She has come good now, despite me. XD Anyway I'm hoping this issue works out the same as all the rest - that I manage to understand and implement the advice I get enough that she "gets" it. I don't think this issue is problematic enough to necessitate the extent of another trip to the Blue Mountains - it's a long way from here, but I am seriously considering getting a private lesson with a local trainer to start me off. I've found a lady trainer up here called Gail Hudson who I have been to some group obedience classes with and she's very good and purely positive, which I think is a great approach for this since I don't want to apply any sort of correction that might reduce drive. I think I will be more confident and effective if I get some experienced and knowledgeable in-person guidance to ensure I start off on the right foot.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Wobbly

[dogdude]

Good tuggies are easy to make

Just source an old piece of 38mm cotton fire hose from ebay or local fire equipment service company 30cm long.

Get some 10 mm cotton cord from Bunnings and make a long loop which you will make long enough to pass through the hose and form large enough handles poking out each end. (sew the ends of the cord together to form the loop using heavy cotton. I butt the ends up parallel and sew together.

Then stuff the tuggie tight with craft wadding or stuffing from an old couch.

Sew ends of fire hose up using heavy cotton. Colour dye if you like.

Done

These are almost indestructible.

I agree with what Kavik has suggested regarding your problem.

My link

[Wobbly]

Thanks Dogdude, that's a great idea. To think I've been ordering frisbees from the US at great expense. And these synthetic tuggies are way better in every way. I am such a dufus.

We got various different synthetic firehose tugs from K9pro the other day, and they're great, I prefer the ones without handles I think. They'll be really easy to make too.

The firehouse tugs are absolutely brilliant, finally I am in control of tug again. I've just been playing with them in the backyard so far, I don't want to play with them on our walks because I don't want her to be obsessed with them till I can get a good reliable out. Once we've got that I will endeavour to start making them the most desirable thing in the world. "D

They're definitely my new favourite toy. :D

I spoke to our trainer on the phone, and her advice was to forget about the frisbee completely for the moment. It's great I can use it for an emergency recall under intense distraction, so I will still always carry it for that, but otherwise don't worry about it. Maybe the time will come when i can transfer the out behaviour to the frisbee, but no biggie if i can't. That's a huge load of my mind, because really getting an out on the frisbee seemed the insurmountable barrier.

I have been trying to apply all the advice given here (with a greater or lesser degree of success), especially Kavik's caution to not let her self satisfy by chewing. I hadn't really realised how much this was contributing to the issue, but of course it's a huge problem - I need her to need me as part of the game.

We haven't been making an awful lot of progress tbh, she hurt her toe (infected toenail) and tug is so hard on her toes that we had to take it easy for a while.

I think I mentioned it in another thread, but when I do "dead tug" she does "dead dog". She takes all her weight off her feet so I have to either hold her in the air by the tug or gently lower the tug to the ground so she can have a little lie down whilst still firmly attached to the tug. XD

Still she does eventually let go of the tug and I'm making a huge happy song and dance about what a good girl she is while immediately offering it straight back to her and starting up another game. It's such a big gameplay change for us though she hasn't gotten it yet, she still thinks the object of the game is for her to keep the tug and me to try to get it off her. But she's enjoying the way we're doing it now, so I'm pretty confident we're on the right track and will get there.

I am going to go ahead with having our trainer help me anyway, although it's probably not necessary, even if we do sort the tuggy demo stuff really fast there's a ton of other stuff I want help with, so a private lesson will be very worthwhile.

I really appreciate everyone's advice, I will keep you posted on our progress.

[Wobbly]

Well it's taken me a few days to post this because I'm not really sure what to think.

So I took Jarrah to the private lesson, with a trainer who is really lovely, she conducts our weekly group obedience classes, her field of expertise is agility & obedience, (her dogs have tonnes of letters after their names XD).

So I showed her Jarrah's tugging. I decided to use the synthetic tug which I consider to be a medium drive toy (frisbee being high drive & a ball she has continual access to being low drive). So Jarrah did her tuggy thing, and we got some good outs from her using food (she is a very food driven dog too - I'm lucky like that, she's easily motivated by toys or food, either works).

Anyway, our trainer's advice is to not continue to play tug with Jarrah. She said normally she encourages people to play tug with their dogs, but not in our case as Jarrah got far too excited as the session wore on. .

I think the main issue in her mind is that Jarrah gets so aroused she does seem to lose a bit of control and may not be careful enough about where she bites in her excitement, and if she misses the tug and gets my hand it could be dangerous. She has gotten my hand before when we've been playing, but as soon as she realises she has flesh rather than fabric she lets go immediately. But that initial bite down can be a bit hard (not bleeding hard, but still ouchy).

I see my trainer's point - if it's someone else playing tug with Jarrah and she accidently gets a hand in her excitement, even if she does release said hand immediately it's still open to misinterpretation by the owner of the hand, and that could be bad for Jarrah and me.

Anyway after that we just concentrated on outs with fetch, which went very well. We are well on the way to consistent outs in that area anyway. So yay for that at least.

So I am pretty sad about this advice because tug is really our favourite game, fetch is fun, but tug is much more interactive and we enjoy it more.

Well we have only been playing fetch since then. I'm really torn. We love tug, and I really don't want to give it up, but I also respect my trainer's advice, expertise and reasoning, so a bit of cognitive dissonance going about this one right now for me now tbh.

Anyway, your thoughts are appreciated, I may not be able to respond immediately here as I will be away tommorow, but I will read as soon as I can, so any feedback or advice would be great.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Wobbly

[Erny]

... our trainer's advice is to not continue to play tug with Jarrah. She said normally she encourages people to play tug with their dogs, but not in our case as Jarrah got far too excited as the session wore on. .

I think the main issue in her mind is that Jarrah gets so aroused she does seem to lose a bit of control and may not be careful enough about where she bites in her excitement, and if she misses the tug and gets my hand it could be dangerous. She has gotten my hand before when we've been playing, but as soon as she realises she has flesh rather than fabric she lets go immediately. But that initial bite down can be a bit hard (not bleeding hard, but still ouchy).

I see my trainer's point - if it's someone else playing tug with Jarrah and she accidently gets a hand in her excitement, even if she does release said hand immediately it's still open to misinterpretation by the owner of the hand, and that could be bad for Jarrah and me.

My dog learnt very quickly to be discerning in the game of tug in terms of obedience accuracy and response as well as in terms of teeth not touching human skin. He knew the game would finish if he didn't exhibit at least some degree of self-control and forethought. I can hold the tug fair in the middle or anywhere else for that matter - even on the command that says "you can have the tug" he will not take it if he doesn't see he can take purchase of it without touching skin with teeth.

Having said that, I taught the "be discerning about where you grab the tug and avoid human skin" only once he'd well and truly learnt the initial game commands. In the mean time it was my job to keep my hands clear of his mouth ........ that was when he was much younger and I was building drive though.

I think that a dog who has been taught the rules of tug and learnt to observe them is a safer dog than one who has not and who is reliant on no-one waving around a toy he thinks just might be for him.

But I don't generally recommend against another trainer's advice. There is more than one way to train a dog and all ways might potentially be correct. And your trainer has the advantage of knowing yourself and your dog.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Erny

[Allywil]

Well we have only been playing fetch since then. I'm really torn. We love tug, and I really don't want to give it up, but I also respect my trainer's advice, expertise and reasoning, so a bit of cognitive dissonance going about this one right now for me now tbh

Tug and fetch are really two different games and I have always found that a dog who learns to out a tug cleanly will out virtually anything with little training, but a dog who outs a ball reliably generally won't out a tug which is not a fetch item as such. It helps also to have a uniform patten of training everything on the same platform as Erny mentioned earlier, a release word like ok or yes or a clicker after the right behaviour is given, release word or click then reward.

When the dog was releasing the "dead tug", the idea is to mark the correct action (the out)and then give the release word or a click which means the dog is allowed to re-engage, have the tug back. You don't need to ramp the dog up with excitement on the out, just calm and smooth repetitions. If you are worried about the dog biting your hands which can happen early in learning, use a tug wide enough and direct the tug centrally into the dogs mouth, manouver the tug so that the dog bites the centre of the tug and thy learn where to bite it. If the dog is a bit hectic, keep it smooth and don't build more drive by tugging hard making the dog fight for it. You can also improve it easily after the dog learns to out to introduce a sit or a down before you release the dog to re-bite for the reward which will slow things up a bit and prevent the dog from blowing over threshhold for random snaps at the tug where hands and fingers can get in the way.

Have fun :)

[Wobbly]

Thanks Erny, you've really clarified things for me. "D

I agree with you that a dog who has learnt how to play tug properly is very safe.

But I guess the issue is that I haven't taught her properly. I built the drive without laying down the ground rules. She hasn't learnt that accidentally grabbing a hand stops the game. She hasn't learnt a start or an effective stop yet. When we first started playing she was quite hesitant to tug, so I didn't think she had much in the way of innate drive. I didn't want to risk suppressing drive by being pernickety about rules. What a mistake.

I think my trainer has Jarrah's best interests as a pet in mind and is being careful to err on the side of caution. She's a very excitable dog - not so many months ago she shook my husband so hard in a game of tug he strained a muscle in his shoulder very badly. She is very enthusiastic about the things she loves. XD

Taking my trainer's caution into account, and your thoughts as well, I am now thinking that while I probably don't have the knowledge or experience to lay the ground rules down effectively by myself at this point, it can still probably be done. I would really love for us to be able to continue playing tug, the idea of having to give it up really saddens me, but I will need someone experienced to start us off on the right foot and to oversee our progress. To make sure we get it right this time.

My trainer is very good, but her fields of expertise are obedience, agility, fly ball etc. I'm not sure if she's confident she could give us 100% reliability on rehabbing my mistakes here maybe? At least, she didn't suggest any routes for rehabbing the issue. I will see her on Saturday for our group obedience class, so I will ask her what she thinks about rehab methods then. If she is not 100% confident in the matter I will try either Steve Courtney or Glenn Cooke.

I saw Steve Courtney when I first got Jarrah fresh from the pound about 4 years ago, and his methods of fixing the behaviour problems she had then worked incredibly well, and I know he is also very experienced in working and teaching dogs in drive, so to get his help is a very appealing option. The difficulty in that ofc is that he's always so heavily booked I may be waiting a looong time for an appointment.

The other potential option is that we are going to a seminar by Glenn Cooke in about 2 weeks, I believe he also has experience in the same field, I think for my purposes he would be a very good candidate to help us too. The wait may not be as long as it would for Steve.

Thanks for your input Erny, I appreciate it a lot. I think maybe with help I might be able to get the ground rules firmly cemented so we can continue to play tug without any worries. What do you think?

[Wobbly]

Hi Ally,

Sorry I didn't see your post before! The problem is we're well beyond the learning stage - we've been tugging like this for years now (I still have all my fingers XD). So this is years of reinforcing bad habits I now need to undo.

I am a dufus. I never expected her to take to it so vociferously or I would have been more careful about consistently enforcing the ground rules to start with.

You're right about tug and fetch being different, she loves fetch, but it doesn't hype her up to an extreme like tug does. My trainer agrees with you on the sit, and I have now introduced that to our games of fetch. She holds a sit stay very nicely for an extended period while I walk away, turn my back and then come back to her to release her to resume play during a game of fetch now.

We haven't been playing tug the last few days so I haven't introduced a sit stay there now. I have had her sit in the middle of games before in the past and she can almost hold the sit, well it's more a squat waiting to pounce than a sit really, she really tries, but gets too keyed up to really be able to hold a proper sit.

I think I do need some help from someone who is very experienced, in person at this stage. I am such a derp for letting it get to this. XD

[Allywil]

Hi Ally,

Sorry I didn't see your post before! The problem is we're well beyond the learning stage - we've been tugging like this for years now (I still have all my fingers XD). So this is years of reinforcing bad habits I now need to undo.

I am a dufus. I never expected her to take to it so vociferously or I would have been more careful about consistently enforcing the ground rules to start with.

You're right about tug and fetch being different, she loves fetch, but it doesn't hype her up to an extreme like tug does. My trainer agrees with you on the sit, and I have now introduced that to our games of fetch. She holds a sit stay very nicely for an extended period while I walk away, turn my back and then come back to her to release her to resume play during a game of fetch now.

We haven't been playing tug the last few days so I haven't introduced a sit stay there now. I have had her sit in the middle of games before in the past and she can almost hold the sit, well it's more a squat waiting to pounce than a sit really, she really tries, but gets too keyed up to really be able to hold a proper sit.

I think I do need some help from someone who is very experienced, in person at this stage. I am such a derp for letting it get to this. XD

It sounds like she may be going over threshhold with the excitement of the tug and your trainer's advice is to slow things down a bit with fetch until she stabilises a bit more. Definitely a trainer experienced in using drive has a lot of potential for great obedience even though over driven they may seem hectic, but a lot of good can be achieved with strong drive, she sounds like a fun dog and just takes time to harness strong drive into good use. The solid sit stay you have achieved is good so you can use that nice solid sit, hold the dog there for a minute then release for the tug reward, have a little tug then "out" and when she lets go immediately command sit and make her hold the sit until you release her again for the tug reward. She gets the tug for giving you the right behaviour, if she won't sit or breaks the sit, no tug. I would also put the tug away so it's your tug not hers and for giving you the right behaviour she gets the reward of playing with "your" a tug.

Your trainer could be on the ball here after seeing her behaviour, just mention to her that you enjoy tug and would like to use it in her training and see if your trainer has a plan to re-introduce it? Any working dog trainers would be able to help you with a plan to use tug games successfully......in working dogs, the more drive a dog has to tug the better so she most definitely could be trimmed up for controlled tugging with the right training.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Allywil

[noisymina]

Funny - I read most of this thread wondering why keep playing tug when it is counter to the action wanted?

I stopped playing tug with Woo and am slowly teaching her to "give" me other things eg her balls. And it is taking a long time! :laugh: But we are getting there.

I fully expect that at some point we will get back to playing tug - and the "give" will then work with it too.

[Kavik]

Don't beat yourself up Wobbly - it is not the worst problem to have!

I have years of bad habits to undo as well, just from a different direction :laugh: If you really want to continue with tug, you should, and find a trainer who can help you. Having all your fingers is a good sign :laugh: