Prong Collar Banning

[corvus]

People use them because they offer leverage. Some dogs are very strong and not very well trained/may be prone to over-reacting. Dealing with a strong dog without much training on a check chain is pretty hard work and doesn't really yield nice clear signals if that's all you've got to work with. On a martingale it's worse. And worse again on a flat collar. So people use prongs because strong dogs are generally more responsive to them. Signals are clearer and it's not as hard work, or so I'm led to believe. Personally, I don't like tools that give automatic corrections. Sometimes I don't want to add any punishments to the mix, thanks. Plenty of trainers and behaviourists out there never use prongs but opt to manage the dog with a head collar. Before people cry out that it's not a tool for dogs who lunge or are reactive, there are ways to deal with that kind of thing pretty safely on head collars. Walking up the leash, for example. Using short leashes. Double leash with one attachment point at a harness or flat collar. And I'm sure there are others. Plenty of average people out there are doing it successfully. The advantage of head collars is that they offer control of the bitey end of the dog so you can steer it away from things it might hurt. Also obviously the eyes, which you can steer away from things the dog wants to stare at and get themselves all worked up about. With a second attachment point you have more control over what the dog experiences as well, which is peace of mind to some. If the problem is simply pulling, there are heaps of tools out there to choose from.

Hope that helps.

[Weasels]

I think people often assume that just because you use a a prong collar it means that you are a lazy trainer.

I don't think anyone who's followed your fosters could suggest you were a lazy trainer KTB

And, circling back to my original point, being a force-free trainer doesn't mean you are a wet blanket with half-trained dogs who fail under pressure either.

[huski]

Lots of people do commit heaps of time to learning how to train their dogs but many also don't due to lack of interest, time etc. sometimes making the commitment just to seek help from a professional is a huge step. Everyone is so different and varied in their skill level and desire and what they want from having a dog that you need to be open to a range of different approaches working with owners, before you even get to working with the dog.

Lack of interest is not a reason that is going to get any sympathy from me.

But it's the reality. I love training dogs, it's my passion. I put hours and hours of my time into learning more about training and working with my dogs. Average Joe who just wants a well behaved family pet is never going to make the same commitment to training their dog that I make to training mine. That's not a bad thing, if the dog is well looked after and cared for etc. plenty of people will never want to put the same time into their dogs as I do, it's unrealistic to expect otherwise.

[koalathebear]

But it's the reality. I love training dogs, it's my passion. I put hours and hours of my time into learning more about training and working with my dogs. Average Joe who just wants a well behaved family pet is never going to make the same commitment to training their dog that I make to training mine. That's not a bad thing, if the dog is well looked after and cared for etc. plenty of people will never want to put the same time into their dogs as I do, it's unrealistic to expect otherwise.

I think what I'm trying to point out is that apart from the Disinterested Owner or Less Committed Owner, some of us who are dog crazy and actually do spend a ridiculous amount of time on our dogs also choose to use a prong collar. I've read the posts on DOL where people say that if they had half an hour with x dog they could teach it to walk on a loose leash on a flat collar - I'd more than welcome them to try with my two :p They're smart dogs and know dozens and dozens of commands, are amazingly well-behaved and responsive, are not destructive, do not nuisance bark, are friendly with all dogs .... unfortunately they just LOVE to pull when we're out walking ...

I am still working with them but they have had many, many MANY hours put into trying to teach them to walk on a loose leash with just a flat collar and we're still not there yet. I have no doubt we'll get there in the end, but until we do - I'm going to keep using the prong when I need to.

ETA: I know it's garbled but I'm just trying to say that in defending the prong, it's not the case that it's just the preserve of the less committed owner. It's also used by conscientious dog owners.

Edited October 23, 2012 by koalathebear

[Cosmolo]

While i am not against prongs i really hate the argument for ANY piece of training equipment that says "when used correctly they're great". To me, this is not the only consideration. The two following questions should be- what is the likelihood of the device being used incorrectly, ie- how hard is it to learn to use? AND- what is the fallout/ consequences when it IS used incorrectly? Some devices are harder to learn to use correctly than others and some have worse fallout than others.

Now before i get jumped on, i actually think a correction chain has worse fallout when used incorrectly than a prong so this isn't an anti prong post. This should apply to every piece of training equipment and these questions should be asked in every situation. I just dislike the 'when used correctly' argument.

And generally, the less effort someone is willing to put in to training, the less likely i am to provide to them a tool that has high levels of corrective function. I have no issue with any tool being used by those willing AND able to be educated in it's correct use.

[huski]

Oh KTB I totally understand what you are saying and I agree! I would happily use a prong collar on my dog if I felt it would work the best. I was addressing a separate point which is the reality is that some people don't have the inclination to put lots of hours of training into their dogs and that doesn't mean the dog is neglected or unloved or that the owners are bad dog owners.

[koalathebear]

Oh KTB I totally understand what you are saying and I agree! I would happily use a prong collar on my dog if I felt it would work the best. I was addressing a separate point which is the reality is that some people don't have the inclination to put lots of hours of training into their dogs and that doesn't mean the dog is neglected or unloved or that the owners are bad dog owners.

I agree. To be honest, because of the potential for misuse, I'd never actually recommend a prong to someone who hadn't gone to see a behaviourist first for training in its use. If someone didn't want to see a trainer but wanted to address pulling, I'd normally recommend a front fastening harness like the Gentle Leader Easy Walk Harness etc.

[Red Fox]

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Edited January 19, 2013 by SecretKei

[Weasels]

But it's the reality. I love training dogs, it's my passion. I put hours and hours of my time into learning more about training and working with my dogs. Average Joe who just wants a well behaved family pet is never going to make the same commitment to training their dog that I make to training mine. That's not a bad thing, if the dog is well looked after and cared for etc. plenty of people will never want to put the same time into their dogs as I do, it's unrealistic to expect otherwise.

I'm not going along with the argument that just because they aren't that interested it's cool to let them do whatever. 100% agree with Cosmolo, these are the people who can least afford to use serious equipment on their dogs since by nature something that does all people claim is going to be a high-risk-high-reward strategy, with highest risk at lower levels of knowledge and skills.

FWIW I don't think prongs should be banned. Perhaps only sold through trainers with an accompanying session or something.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Weasels

[huski]

But it's the reality. I love training dogs, it's my passion. I put hours and hours of my time into learning more about training and working with my dogs. Average Joe who just wants a well behaved family pet is never going to make the same commitment to training their dog that I make to training mine. That's not a bad thing, if the dog is well looked after and cared for etc. plenty of people will never want to put the same time into their dogs as I do, it's unrealistic to expect otherwise.

I'm not going along with the argument that just because they aren't that interested it's cool to let them do whatever. 100% agree with Cosmolo, these are the people who can least afford to use serious equipment on their dogs since by nature something that does all people claim is going to be a high-risk-high-reward strategy, with highest risk at lower levels of knowledge and skills.

Firstly, I didn't say were not interested. Clearly if someone engages the service of a professional they have some level of interest in their dog. I was drawing a comparison to someone who is like many people on DOL, very passionate about dogs and learning about training and do it as a hobby or more; and people who have a general interest in dogs, love their pet but don't want to spend hours and hours training their dogs.

I also didn't say "let them do whatever". I said that there are dog owners who love their dogs but don't want to learn in depth behaviour science or spend hours training their dog as a hobby. They just want a well behaved pet and aren't interested in spending weeks or months or longer teaching their dog not to pull excessively on the leash (for example). In fact, I'm not interested in spending weeks or months training my own dogs to LLW either, far more interesting and fun things to train :laugh:

Personally from my own experience and others, I don't feel prong collars are hard to learn how to use correctly. I also don't think they are high risk especially once the owner has been shown how to use one correctly. Furthermore, when I say used correctly you'd assume it would only be being used in the first place because (in the context I am talking in) the owner is working with a trainer who made the assessment that a prong collar would be suitable. IMO that's all part of 'correct use'.

Edited October 23, 2012 by huski

[koalathebear]

I don't think anyone who's followed your fosters could suggest you were a lazy trainer KTB

Awww, thanks Weasel :laugh: I'm a lazy sloth about many things, but not about dog training.

I normally wouldn't even post in a 'prong collar' thread because these threads tend to go in endless circles, no one convinces anyone, people get snotty, someone goes too far, Troy has to intervene and the thread just gets locked but I just wanted to let people know that the prongs aren't just used by people with Big Strong Dogs or people who are Not So Zealous About Dog Training. Working with different dogs, I've seen that some dogs are much easier to teach certain things than others. Just randomly, one of the fosters we had was sooo smart and we were able to teach him heaps of the basics (including loose leash walking) and we were even able to teach him a bunch of tricks but we could not teach him shake hands which is usually the easiest of the tricks!!!

Edited October 23, 2012 by koalathebear

[Sparassidae]

Is that the explanation you are referring to? A bit simplistic - that answer can be equally applied to the other collars as well. Why this one is necessary rather than the others available is what I was looking for and obviously the opinion is divided.

You've done the research - you know the answer to your question.

So I'll respond to your question with another question.

Why not use a prong collar over another collar?

[Weasels]

Personally from my own experience and others, I don't feel prong collars are hard to learn how to use correctly. I also don't think they are high risk especially once the owner has been shown how to use one correctly. Furthermore, when I say used correctly you'd assume it would only be being used in the first place because (in the context I am talking in) the owner is working with a trainer who made the assessment that a prong collar would be suitable. IMO that's all part of 'correct use'.

Ok I think we're talking at cross-purposes. I was talking about people who just bought one thinking it was going to be a magic quick-fix without any more training needed; and there are corners of the internet where prongs are spoken about in reverential tones such that I can see where people would get that impression.

Yes I agree that engaging a behavioural trainer shows a level of commitment that should be applauded. Hence my edit.

[huski]

The people who would buy prongs (not that they are particularly easy to purchase as they aren't widely available like other tools) and use them as a quick fix like that would be just as likely to go through a range of other tools to find a quick fix too - realistically dogs can learn to pull on any tool. Owners who look for tools as quick fixes would most likely end up buying check chains, head collars, anti pull harnesses etc before prongs anyway as they are more widely available than prongs and more people know about them.

[Bisart Dobes]

Why do people use it? Its such a vicious looking implement.

A prong collar is less abusive to a dog than a 'normal' correction collar. Working for NDTF & ADT we saved many dogs from being put to sleep with the proper use and training with prong collars. They are a life saver for alot of dogs and a godsend for alot of owners.

[Erny]

Why do people use it? Its such a vicious looking implement.

That's why it was so easy to get banned here in Victoria. Those who wanted it banned only needed to leave it up to the imagination of the public, with a few prompting choice words to help those images along. No education regarding the collars, their use etc. was provided. And no evidence of harm is available either. My dog cringes when I put the front attaching harness on him.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Erny

[Cosmolo]

Sorry to say and i am NOT suggesting this is the case with anyone posting on this thread but there are some trainers and training schools that hand out prong collars like lollies- because they are 'quicker' or 'easier'. No consideration for the fallout of incorrect use and what happens to the dog while the owner learns how to use it etc. Too much focus on a tool can also come at the expense of reward rates and reward history, creating handlers that are quick to correct and slow to reward. It doesn't have to be this way of course- i am just suggesting that care should always be taken with ANY tool that has the ability to correct at a significant level and the we need to consider how a tool is LIKELY to be used before giving it to someone, not just how it SHOULD be used.

I have seen the results of many an inconsistent or inexperienced owner who has been handed tools with high levels of corrective function (not just prongs) straight off the bat and it's not pretty.

[Erny]

I have seen the results of many an inconsistent or inexperienced owner who has been handed tools with high levels of corrective function (not just prongs) straight off the bat and it's not pretty.

Agree to a point - Although I see far more tools such as head collars being "handed out like lollies" (made worse by the fact that they can be picked straight off the shelf) than I have ever seen of the PPCollars. I tended to find that people were far more conscientious about how they handled a PPCollar - possibly because of the way they looked - than about how they handle a head collar which by comparison *looks* benign.

[m-sass]

Sorry to say and i am NOT suggesting this is the case with anyone posting on this thread but there are some trainers and training schools that hand out prong collars like lollies- because they are 'quicker' or 'easier'. No consideration for the fallout of incorrect use and what happens to the dog while the owner learns how to use it etc. Too much focus on a tool can also come at the expense of reward rates and reward history, creating handlers that are quick to correct and slow to reward. It doesn't have to be this way of course- i am just suggesting that care should always be taken with ANY tool that has the ability to correct at a significant level and the we need to consider how a tool is LIKELY to be used before giving it to someone, not just how it SHOULD be used.

I have seen the results of many an inconsistent or inexperienced owner who has been handed tools with high levels of corrective function (not just prongs) straight off the bat and it's not pretty.

Excellent training tool for many dogs but not all IMHO

Edited October 23, 2012 by m-sass

[Kavik]

I'm a small person and if I had a big strong dog a prong collar would be my choice for walking. Even if my dog had good LLW and was well trained - I like to be ready in case something unexpected happened - loose dogs, aggressive dogs coming at us and lunging at us, an animal running across the path etc.