Prong Collar Banning

[Tazar]

Just like many dogs who look ' visious' to the uneducated. :D A check chain yanked hard is worse than a prong used properly.

Yes!Yank both around one of your thighs to check ;)

Yep try it if you can, no pain on a prong collar (and yes I have done it :laugh: )

[OSoSwift]

ewww I just googled prong collars and the search came up with prong collar injuries. Used improperly it's pretty awful

I can almost guarantee (and I say almost purely because I don't know exactly which pics you've looked at) the pics you're looking at would have been caused by pressure necrosis which happens when the collar is left on a dog for too long (read: weeks or months). The same injuries can occur any type of collar, including flat collars, check chains etc.

MAkes sense. I have seen some terrible collar induced injuries.

[Guest lavendergirl]

Just like many dogs who look ' visious' to the uneducated. :D

A check chain yanked hard is worse than a prong used properly.

Oh - those States that have banned them are just uneducated? I wondered under what circumstances they were used??

[huski]

Just like many dogs who look ' visious' to the uneducated. :D

A check chain yanked hard is worse than a prong used properly.

Oh - those States that have banned them are just uneducated? I wondered under what circumstances they were used??

They haven't been banned in multiple states, just Victoria. And yes, the ban was uneducated, based on no science or facts that prong collars cause injury.

How much experience have you had with prong collars?

[Guest lavendergirl]

Just like many dogs who look ' visious' to the uneducated. :D

A check chain yanked hard is worse than a prong used properly.

Oh - those States that have banned them are just uneducated? I wondered under what circumstances they were used??

They haven't been banned in multiple states, just Victoria. And yes, the ban was uneducated, based on no science or facts that prong collars cause injury.

How much experience have you had with prong collars?

None - thank goodness. Nobody has yet answered my question about why people use them. Under what circumstances are these collars used - a pretty simple question. What is the basic premise around their effectiveness as opposed to the other collars mentioned?

[rubiton]

People who use them seem to have the big chunky and not to mention very strong breeds and therefore isnt it better to have a device that can control the dog rather than having something like a flat collar which gives no control at all. Any piece of equipment on a dog or horse or whatever if used correctly and for the right reason is better than the wrong thing used to try and keep control.

Its bad enough when people dont like choke chains - this when used properly is an effective tool for training in dogs yet for some reason the vocal minority are trying to get peple to reason with dogs (such as time out in the naughty corner- dogs do not comprehend this) instead of using things that have been effective for decades.

[huski]

None - thank goodness. Nobody has yet answered my question about why people use them. Under what circumstances are these collars used - a pretty simple question. What is the basic premise around their effectiveness as opposed to the other collars mentioned?

Why "thank goodness"? Prong collars are just a training aid or tool. The prongs are spaced evenly around the dog’s neck, which means are more effective than tools like check chains because they apply pressure points to the skin, not muscle. This means that it takes far less force or pressure to apply an effective correction than it does with any other corrective tool. As with any tool the level of effectiveness depends on the person holding the leash.

The more dogs and people you train the more you realise that there is no one fits all approach to training or set methods that can be applied successfully with every handler and dog. Prong collars are tool that work extremely effectively with little pressure required from the handler, this gives the handler leverage so that further learning or behaviour modification if required can take place.

ETA: What circumstances would they be used? That depends on the dog and owner you have in front of you and whether it is the best tool to help deliver the results they are after.

Edited October 23, 2012 by huski

[Guest lavendergirl]

Thanks for the explanation. I have done some Googling for myself and found that opinions are very divided amongst the training community as well. A very controversial subject.

[Weasels]

People who use them seem to have the big chunky and not to mention very strong breeds and therefore isnt it better to have a device that can control the dog rather than having something like a flat collar which gives no control at all. Any piece of equipment on a dog or horse or whatever if used correctly and for the right reason is better than the wrong thing used to try and keep control.

Its bad enough when people dont like choke chains - this when used properly is an effective tool for training in dogs yet for some reason the vocal minority are trying to get peple to reason with dogs (such as time out in the naughty corner- dogs do not comprehend this) instead of using things that have been effective for decades.

There are a million and one training options between aversive collars and soppy ineffectual training The majority of dogs don't need them and it doesn't make their owners any poorer or weaker trainers.

[superminty]

Nobody has yet answered my question about why people use them.

Actually, minimax answered this on page 1.

[huski]

The majority of dogs don't need them and it doesn't make their owners any poorer or weaker trainers.

I am sure many experienced trainers could train the majority of dogs without tools like prong collars, but what an experienced trainer can do is not necessarily what the dog's owner is capable of doing. It's not always just about what the dog needs but what the owner is capable of doing and within what time frame they need to see results.

[huski]

Thanks for the explanation. I have done some Googling for myself and found that opinions are very divided amongst the training community as well. A very controversial subject.

Add to the pile of one million and three dog training topics that can be controversial :laugh:

[Sparassidae]

It should be relatively obvious when and why they are used.

I use one on my Husky, he doesn't need it. He doesn't even pull. But he can slip collars, I'm not blowing money on a "soft" martingale when I can simply put one of my existing prong collars on him. In his old age he has developed some weird fears, like sunbeams. He doesn't like beams of light, I discovered this when he stopped walking and I kept walking and his collar came straight off his head. Kind of awkward, luckily he has a recall (perfect as well) but I'd rather have his leash attached when on a main road.

[Guest lavendergirl]

Nobody has yet answered my question about why people use them.

Actually, minimax answered this on page 1.

"Because it helps effectivly control their dog?"

Is that the explanation you are referring to? A bit simplistic - that answer can be equally applied to the other collars as well. Why this one is necessary rather than the others available is what I was looking for and obviously the opinion is divided.

[superminty]

Nobody has yet answered my question about why people use them.

Actually, minimax answered this on page 1.

"Because it helps effectivly control their dog?"

Is that the explanation you are referring to? A bit simplistic - that answer can be equally applied to the other collars as well. Why this one is necessary rather than the others available is what I was looking for and obviously the opinion is divided.

Why does it need to be more complex than that? If someone chooses a prong collar because it helps their effective control - the word "effective" is important there - then probably other collars were not effective.

To answer your question more fully, I would choose to use one where control is paramount to safety - perhaps the dog weighs more than the owner, lunges at other animals/people explosively (not necessarily aggressively), has aggression issues that make effective control a must and so on.

I would also choose one over any other corrective collar if it proves a flat collar or front attach harness (another favourite of mine) is not appropriate. So a puller where methods on a flat collar or front attach harness have not been effective (there's that word again). Maybe the owner needs the pulling sorted yesterday? Bad wrists, arthritis etc. Plenty of reasons why other methods/equipment may not work.

Sadly in Vic we don't get that choice.

[Aidan3]

Its bad enough when people dont like choke chains - this when used properly is an effective tool for training in dogs yet for some reason the vocal minority are trying to get peple to reason with dogs (such as time out in the naughty corner- dogs do not comprehend this) instead of using things that have been effective for decades.

Yeah? That's pretty crazy :laugh:

[Weasels]

The majority of dogs don't need them and it doesn't make their owners any poorer or weaker trainers.

I am sure many experienced trainers could train the majority of dogs without tools like prong collars, but what an experienced trainer can do is not necessarily what the dog's owner is capable of doing. It's not always just about what the dog needs but what the owner is capable of doing and within what time frame they need to see results.

Yet another reason I would make a terrible professional dog trainer. I doubt people would be pay to be cuffed upside the head and be told "spend more time with and learning about your dog, dammit"

[huski]

Yet another reason I would make a terrible professional dog trainer. I doubt people would be pay to be cuffed upside the head and be told "spend more time with and learning about your dog, dammit"

Lots of people do commit heaps of time to learning how to train their dogs but many also don't due to lack of interest, time etc. sometimes making the commitment just to seek help from a professional is a huge step. Everyone is so different and varied in their skill level and desire and what they want from having a dog that you need to be open to a range of different approaches working with owners, before you even get to working with the dog.

[Weasels]

Lots of people do commit heaps of time to learning how to train their dogs but many also don't due to lack of interest, time etc. sometimes making the commitment just to seek help from a professional is a huge step. Everyone is so different and varied in their skill level and desire and what they want from having a dog that you need to be open to a range of different approaches working with owners, before you even get to working with the dog.

Lack of interest is not a reason that is going to get any sympathy from me.

I think Superminty articulated the argument for prong collars well, assuming they work as well as claimed. I'm also sure, however, that there are plenty of people who hit, kick and yank their dogs to minimise inconvenience to themselves and the time they spend with their dog.

I don't think a 'prong licence' is the worst idea ever, if it directs people who see it as a 'quick fix' to someone with a bit more knowledge to explain what it can and can't do.

[koalathebear]

Lots of people do commit heaps of time to learning how to train their dogs but many also don't due to lack of interest, time etc. sometimes making the commitment just to seek help from a professional is a huge step. Everyone is so different and varied in their skill level and desire and what they want from having a dog that you need to be open to a range of different approaches working with owners, before you even get to working with the dog.

I agree. But also, I think people often assume that just because you use a a prong collar it means that you are a lazy trainer. Both of my dogs have gone through beginners, bronze, silver and made it into the gold level obedience at our dog club and are generally very obedient. They also do agility. I have spent many, many hours on my dogs to try to work with them walking on a flat collar but they still love to pull when they are excited or being walked together. I have tried so many of the different techniques recommended with differing degrees of success - I've ever tried the 'farmer' style, walking beside the dog with a long cardboard tube to guide the dog back.

The prong collar has worked best for both of my Kelpies - although I do alternate and switch back and forth between prong and flat collar to keep them guessing. Sometimes we go out for a walk with the prong, sometimes the flat collar. Sometimes I'll switch during the walk.

I don't think my lack of success with loose leash walking is because I'm lazy. I spend a LOT of time on dogs - my own and foster. We've had two completely untrained foster Kelpies who we were able to train to loose leash walk on a flat collar in almost no time at all and then there was a third who was a serial puller like my own two. I really do think that sometimes it depends on the individual dog. One of the fosters had a lot of other issues because of a lack of training but it only took 10 minutes of training to get him to walk on a loose leash.

I haven't given up and my goal is to eventually get my two to walk on a loose leash when on a flat collar but I do think that we're going to get there with continued use of the prong. I tried the prong on my own arm and wouldn't use anything on my dogs that was cruel. I also much prefer the prong to a head collar or a walking harness.

Edited October 23, 2012 by koalathebear