Splitting Advantix

[Bullbreedlover]

It is the same scenario for all products that contain and active ingredient of Imidicloprid ie all Advantix, Advocate and Advantage and all products that use N methypyrrolidone as the emulsion. Most topical parasiticides are in this category too. ie Frontline, ect

It is an extremely dangerous and stupid practice to save a couple of $ especially in Tick preparations due to the risk of death that can AND DOES result.

It is also a main reason why people who do this are the first to complain of poor performance of products such as persistent flea problems and/or tick attachment. The correct dosing is HIGHLY IMPORTANT.

The practice of splitting doses indicates that the health of their animals is not of paramount importance and ignorance is asking for trouble. Cost cutting in this manner is playing russian roulette with your animals.

I hope this helps save the lives of some canines.

And for those who are planning to breed from their dogs and did not know it methypyrrolidone should NOT be used as it has been identified as a reproductive toxicant.

Nowstarin...you say this immulsion does not mix the active ingredients of the products. If not then why the heck do they use it? It is a solvent!

Methypyrrolidone........solvent

And even though the instructions on Advantix say it is safe for use on pregnant and lactating bitches I would never use it on them.

I havent used a topical insecticide on my dogs for nearly 3 years now. Last summer my two Bullmastiffs had about two fleas each and they were removed with a comb. My Bulldog last summer had zero fleas. Yes we do have ticks in our area. The last time my Bullmastiffs had a couple of brown ticks on them was 4 years ago after a local show. I am vigilant but I know it can happen.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Bullbreedlover

[Alyosha]

We do get the message sheena, that you are happy to continue splitting doses and will defend it in the face of legislation and veterinary advice on here, despite the fact that you weren't the one to question it in the first place.

You can try and interpret the directions anyway you like, it does clearly state weight ranges and number of tubes per dog as dosage rates. Not number of dogs per tube.

You can do what you like with your dogs, it has been adequately explained why it is not recommended nor even perhaps lawful.

[sheena]

Then show me on the Bayer site, where it says that it is unsafe & unlawful to split the large doses. That is all I am asking, is that be shown to me & many others who split doses, where Bayer says that this practice is unlawful & dangerous. I have the safety directions in front of me & have gone right through their web page & cannot find the information that you claim that the ingredients do not mix. If they do not mix, then neither would they mix in cattle products that come in 5 litre containers, not individual tubes. It is done up in individual tubes for convenience of the user, so that the dose is already worked out for them & they just have to snip off the top & apply it.

[Bullbreedlover]

Nowstarin...Do you work for Bayer??????

Your advice through many many previous posts that you have made all point in that direction.

[nowstarin]

I appreciate your comments and the responses that Dr Google has come up with for your searches. i will try to explain it in practical terms to allay your concerns.

Firstly, science does throw up some "worrying" terms but alas they are technical and are not as sinister as you may interpret them.

Pharmasolve N-methyl-2-pyrrolidone (NMP) is a water-miscible polar aprotic solvent with high interfacial activity. It is used as a drug solubilizer and penetration enhancer in human topical dosage forms, and for the same purposes in parenteral and topical veterinary products.

Aprotic solvents are those that are not capable of hydrogen bonding.

It is not a "solvent" as per the paint stripping type. Far from it. It is human edible and is used in most pharmaceuticals that we consume and use daily. It is non toxic and has no relationship or safety warnings for use in breeding animals because it is perfectly safe to use in these animals, humans and is noted as safe for pregnant and lactacting bitches. It is not the same solvent as a stripping solvent. It is a soluble solvent.

So how and why do these preparations need N-methtypyrrolidone?

When Advantix (or others) are applied, this assists the product to penetrate the skin layer to move the product to the lipid layer of skin (the layer below the surface), the area where skin cells and hair follicles are developing and originate from, to allow the product to permeate the hair shafts (all of them) and "coat" the hair shafts with the product. The reason that it is advised for large dogs to apply in 3 or more locations along the backline, is to speed the process of disseminating over the ENTIRE dog, ie Small = dog small surface area, Large dog = Large surface area. If you applied it in one spot it would still work just as effectively.

The directions for use state clearly, "ONE TUBE treats xx - xx kg" depending on the size of the dog. It does not state "use part tube". It states ONE tube. It also states safe for use in Pregnant and Lactating bitches and gives warnings and minimum age use and other information.

The safety of these products is very strictly studied by independent bodies prior to granting of registrations and APVMA approvals. It is proven, safe and effective if used in accordance to the directions, which Never indicate to split the dose.

Splitting doses is a bit of an old wives tale and those that have practised it and not had a problem have purely been LUCKY.

Re the comment of of paraciticides for Calves. Each product has differing methods of transport and different ingredients. Different species are affected by different parasites and as such are not the same ie Paralysis ticks not affecting host animals ect.

Re the manufacture processes of products, Pharmaceuticals are not manufactured like dog foods. They are not necessarily filled from a vat. And the process is undertaken in laborotories under extensive and strict sterile conditions. The filling of the ampoules is a scientific approach not a mass producing production line.

T

Re the comment that your vet AND the supplier telling you to split doses: This is in direct contravention to the registered use of the product and I would make the warranty of the product VOID. Also the "Supplier" you are referring to would be a distributer of the product with no connection to the manufacturer other than to sell the product. WARRANTY: PURCHASER ASSUMES ALL RISK OF USE AND HANDLING WHERE THE PRODUCT IS NOT USED IN ACCORDANCE WITH DIRECTIONS GIVEN.

The information I have provided for you was PURELY to assist the health and well being of animals. These products Pharmaceuticals were originally Veterinary prescription drugs and were prescribed for use by Veterinarians. Being that they are now freely available in Australia as an "Over the counter" product now, it is imperative that consumers are aware of the correct uses of them.

This year alone (9 months) has seen more paralysis tick cases reported and treated in vets than for the previous 24 months combined. Protection is the safest and most cost effective method of ensuring your pet is not the next statistic. DAILY SEARCHING is essential even when using protection. NO TICK TREATMENT IS 100% guaranteed. Advantix is 98% efficacy.

Parasiticides are safe, non toxic and have been developed for the health and best interests of protecting animals against Death. They work when consumers use correctly and are compliant. (ie applied on time every time).

As for where I get my info from. I lecture in parasitology with specific focus on endo and ectoparasites in canines and felines. I study science and animal health and I breed and show dogs worldwide. I am more than happy to provide more information if required. I hope this helps.

[aussielover]

Then show me on the Bayer site, where it says that it is unsafe & unlawful to split the large doses. That is all I am asking, is that be shown to me & many others who split doses, where Bayer says that this practice is unlawful & dangerous. I have the safety directions in front of me & have gone right through their web page & cannot find the information that you claim that the ingredients do not mix. If they do not mix, then neither would they mix in cattle products that come in 5 litre containers, not individual tubes. It is done up in individual tubes for convenience of the user, so that the dose is already worked out for them & they just have to snip off the top & apply it.

I'm sorry, but is it not obvious and common sense that if the directions say "apply one tube" then according to the manufacturers it is unsafe to split doses by only applying part of a tube to separate dogs.

Its fine for you if splitting doses seem to work for you and you're happy to do it.

However, surely you can see that no one with any sense would recommended going against the manufacturers instructions and advising someone over the net to split doses.

[Rappie]

Then show me on the Bayer site, where it says that it is unsafe & unlawful to split the large doses.

The safety information does.

It says one tube treats dogs (that weigh) 25-50kg. That means one tube for single dogs that weigh between 25kg and 50kg. It does not mean one tube treats a total of 50kg of body weight regardless of the number of dogs.

As for unlawful: "NOT TO BE USED FOR ANY PURPOSE, OR IN ANY MANNER, CONTRARY TO THIS LABEL UNLESS AUTHORISED UNDER APPROPRIATE LEGISLATION". That is not a side comment from the manufacturer, it's a specifically worded legal restraint that prohibits the user from using the product in any way other than described unless they have an approved permit to do so.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Rappie

[sheena]

NO IT IS NOT OK>

Re the comments above ie Buying an XL dog size and Splitting it by syringe, THIS PRACTICE is extremely dangerous and totally unsafe for tick protection. The active ingredients of Imidicloprid and Permethrin are suspended in an emulsion called methylpyrilliodine. This emulsion DOES NOT "MIX" the active ingredients EVENLY even with shaking The active particles stay self suspended. So by dividing the dose, you may actually be drawing up pure emulsion and NO ACTIVES, thereby giving one dog a dose of NOTHING and the other dog a dose that is for the weight range stated on the packaging. IT IS SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS and absolutely leaving your dogs at risk of DEATH.

It is a bit like pouring an alcoholic spirit drink when you see the alcohol at the bottom and the coke on top. The difference being when you mix the drink it stays mixed. Methylpyrilliodine DOES NOT stay mixed EVER. the other additives in topicals are bittering agents to deter other dogs (or children) from tasting or licking off the actives at the time of application, and a stabiliser to assist the product to stay active and keep shelf life until the expiry date of the product.

Sorry to bring this back up again, but I am still confused & apart from the legal points, my other points have not been answered. I have written to Bayer in regards to the above statement, because if it is true, then we are wasting our time doing what the directions say, in distributing the product to several points along the dogs back, if the emulsion can never mix, then all of the active ingredients are going to end up in one spot anyway. Also, I can't get my head around the idea that the ingredients in all these tiny tubes are individually mixed, added to the tube then sealed with exactly the right amount of active ingredient in each one. I would have thought it would all be mixed in a batch with the ingredients evenly distributed then put into the tubes by machine, as it comes. If the ingredients never mix, then some tubes are going to have little or no active ingredient in them. If they are individually made & filled by scientist, then maybe that explains the high price of these products compared to other livestock tickicides. Sorry to be such a but if I ever hear back from Bayer, then I will post the answer.

Edited October 16, 2012 by sheena

[kayla1]

I don't use spot ons now but when I used to get frontline there was always a small amount that you couldn't squeeze out of the tube. So if the ingredients didn't mix, there could have been the active ingredient left in the bottom of the tube thereby affecting the dosage given. Unless frontline is made differently, I don't know, but surely there would be some mixing of ingredients.

[OSoSwift]

I am interested to see the answer as I would also assume the product was made in large quantity then placed into the ampuoles.

I am also going to look at the active ingredeints in my livestock back liners as well to see if they have the same active ingredients as I hadn't thought of that.

[SchnauzerMax]

I am interested to see the answer as I would also assume the product was made in large quantity then placed into the ampuoles.

I am also going to look at the active ingredeints in my livestock back liners as well to see if they have the same active ingredients as I hadn't thought of that.

A lot of manufacturing processes squirt set amounts of the ingredients into each container. they don't mix up a batch and then dole it out.

Canned goods for example put set amounts of the ingredients into each can and then seal it and boil it. They measure temperatures because they know its cooked after so many minutes at a certain temperature.

It would not surprise me to learn that the spot on treatments get a similar process (not the boiling part :laugh: ).

[sheena]

I am interested to see the answer as I would also assume the product was made in large quantity then placed into the ampuoles.

I am also going to look at the active ingredeints in my livestock back liners as well to see if they have the same active ingredients as I hadn't thought of that.

A lot of manufacturing processes squirt set amounts of the ingredients into each container. they don't mix up a batch and then dole it out.

Canned goods for example put set amounts of the ingredients into each can and then seal it and boil it. They measure temperatures because they know its cooked after so many minutes at a certain temperature.

It would not surprise me to learn that the spot on treatments get a similar process (not the boiling part :laugh: ).

That would explain why they are so expensive, if that is the case. Although it needn't be as it would all be done by machine.

[OSoSwift]

I am interested to see the answer as I would also assume the product was made in large quantity then placed into the ampuoles.

I am also going to look at the active ingredeints in my livestock back liners as well to see if they have the same active ingredients as I hadn't thought of that.

A lot of manufacturing processes squirt set amounts of the ingredients into each container. they don't mix up a batch and then dole it out.

Canned goods for example put set amounts of the ingredients into each can and then seal it and boil it. They measure temperatures because they know its cooked after so many minutes at a certain temperature.

It would not surprise me to learn that the spot on treatments get a similar process (not the boiling part :laugh: ).

Oh okay hadn't thought of that, I a, very interested to see what it says now :)

I have now changed products but never had any flea, work or heartworm issues while doing what I did, which was around 6 years

[sheena]

I am interested to see the answer as I would also assume the product was made in large quantity then placed into the ampuoles.

I am also going to look at the active ingredeints in my livestock back liners as well to see if they have the same active ingredients as I hadn't thought of that.

A lot of manufacturing processes squirt set amounts of the ingredients into each container. they don't mix up a batch and then dole it out.

Canned goods for example put set amounts of the ingredients into each can and then seal it and boil it. They measure temperatures because they know its cooked after so many minutes at a certain temperature.

It would not surprise me to learn that the spot on treatments get a similar process (not the boiling part :laugh: ).

Oh okay hadn't thought of that, I a, very interested to see what it says now :)

I have now changed products but never had any flea, work or heartworm issues while doing what I did, which was around 6 years

I luv your signature , Ososwift. IF I do get a reply, then I will be asking them more questions :)

[Jed]

NO IT IS NOT OK>

Re the comments above ie Buying an XL dog size and Splitting it by syringe, THIS PRACTICE is extremely dangerous and totally unsafe for tick protection. The active ingredients of Imidicloprid and Permethrin are suspended in an emulsion called methylpyrilliodine. This emulsion DOES NOT "MIX" the active ingredients EVENLY even with shaking The active particles stay self suspended. So by dividing the dose, you may actually be drawing up pure emulsion and NO ACTIVES, thereby giving one dog a dose of NOTHING and the other dog a dose that is for the weight range stated on the packaging. IT IS SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS and absolutely leaving your dogs at risk of DEATH.

It is a bit like pouring an alcoholic spirit drink when you see the alcohol at the bottom and the coke on top. The difference being when you mix the drink it stays mixed. Methylpyrilliodine DOES NOT stay mixed EVER. the other additives in topicals are bittering agents to deter other dogs (or children) from tasting or licking off the actives at the time of application, and a stabiliser to assist the product to stay active and keep shelf life until the expiry date of the product.

I am interested in this, as most vets advise splitting it. Do you have a link to the original research please?

[Clyde]

I've not ever had a vet advise splitting it. I've not ever been given a reason not to, other than they simply don't recommend it.

[sheena]

A quick google will bring up lots of information on splitting viles including This onewhich tells you the amounts & the safe handling & storage.

[Guest donatella]

I've not ever had a vet advise splitting it. I've not ever been given a reason not to, other than they simply don't recommend it.

I was advised to split, and given the mls per dog.

Edited October 16, 2012 by donatella

[stormie]

If the product isn't mixed inside, how come there are no directions to mix/shake the tube before applying? Obviously when you open and apply a tube, you're not applying 100% of the liquid - some remains inside, coating the plastic. So how can you be certain that half the active ingredient isn't left behind coating the plastic of the tube?

[Alyosha]

Why are people keen to reference websites that advise splitting, when it has already been pointed out that splitting may be an offence? Splitting vials is "off label use" which certainly is an offence unless under prescription or permit.