Splitting Advantix

[Luke GSP]

hi all, I have two GSP dogs that weigh 26KG and 28KG, up till now I have always used the 25KG+ Advantix every fortnight on each dog. Now, my question is, I have also acquired a beautiful Cocker who is quite slight 12KG. A lady i spoke to the other day asked why I would buy another different size of Advantix for him, stating that she has three 10KG dogs and just splits the 4ml dose (25KG+ dog siz)e between the three of them 1.3ml each, hence only using one capsule per fortnight rather than three. she suggested that i still use two but dispense in to an egg cup, fill in to a small needleless syringe and and administer slightly less to the GSP's which would leave enough for the cocker.

this would mean that my dogs would get

25-28KG GSP 3ml

12KG cocker1.5-2ml

What are your thoughts on this?

the pack/dosage sizes are

Tube sizes: Small dogs up to 4kg - 0.4mL

Dogs 4-10kg - 1.0mL

Dogs 10-25kg - 2.5mL

Dogs over 25kg - 4mL

[nowstarin]

NO IT IS NOT OK>

Re the comments above ie Buying an XL dog size and Splitting it by syringe, THIS PRACTICE is extremely dangerous and totally unsafe for tick protection. The active ingredients of Imidicloprid and Permethrin are suspended in an emulsion called methylpyrilliodine. This emulsion DOES NOT "MIX" the active ingredients EVENLY even with shaking The active particles stay self suspended. So by dividing the dose, you may actually be drawing up pure emulsion and NO ACTIVES, thereby giving one dog a dose of NOTHING and the other dog a dose that is for the weight range stated on the packaging. IT IS SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS and absolutely leaving your dogs at risk of DEATH.

It is a bit like pouring an alcoholic spirit drink when you see the alcohol at the bottom and the coke on top. The difference being when you mix the drink it stays mixed. Methylpyrilliodine DOES NOT stay mixed EVER. the other additives in topicals are bittering agents to deter other dogs (or children) from tasting or licking off the actives at the time of application, and a stabiliser to assist the product to stay active and keep shelf life until the expiry date of the product.

[OSoSwift]

I split advocate.

I open the ampuole, get a syringe with a needle, such out the contents, remove the needle then split between the dogs. For advocate the dose is 0.1ml/kg but I have no idea about Advantix. I gave my 11kg Whippet 1.3mls and my 14kg whippet 1.6mls to make sure they were covered but not getting more than they actually required. They would have been getting 2.5mls, had I been giving them their actual dose even though one just scraped into the weight range.

I used to buy the over 25kg packets as I also used it on my Stafford.

Edited October 13, 2012 by OSoSwift

[Guest donatella]

Most people I know with multiple dogs split their flea/tick protection. I'll be doing it on mine too, seeing as one of mine is 1.5kgs, she won't need a full vial.

[G.S.P.S/K]

Nowstarin, is that only the case with Advantix? What about other products like Advocate and Frontline? I must admit I'm planning on getting ''Advocate for dogs 25kg' plus and using 3/4s of it on my GSP and 1/4 on my (small) Staffy X

[minimax]

I wouldn't do it, you can't be guaranteed you're getting the correct amount of the active ingredients. Splitting it in half doesn't mean you're getting half of each ingredient.

I'd rather spend a few extra dollars and ensure my dogs are covered properly.

[Clyde]

.

I'd rather spend a few extra dollars and ensure my dogs are covered properly.

Same. Especially when it is a life or death scenario with ticks. Just not worth the risk IMO.

[Everythings Shiny]

We've had so many cases over the years of people splitting their tick protection packs and as already mentioned, it just doesn't work

On run of the mill flea protection, I split, but for ticks, they get the correct dosaging.

[nowstarin]

It is the same scenario for all products that contain and active ingredient of Imidicloprid ie all Advantix, Advocate and Advantage and all products that use N methypyrrolidone as the emulsion. Most topical parasiticides are in this category too. ie Frontline, ect

It is an extremely dangerous and stupid practice to save a couple of $ especially in Tick preparations due to the risk of death that can AND DOES result.

It is also a main reason why people who do this are the first to complain of poor performance of products such as persistent flea problems and/or tick attachment. The correct dosing is HIGHLY IMPORTANT.

The practice of splitting doses indicates that the health of their animals is not of paramount importance and ignorance is asking for trouble. Cost cutting in this manner is playing russian roulette with your animals.

I hope this helps save the lives of some canines.

[Dame Aussie]

.

I'd rather spend a few extra dollars and ensure my dogs are covered properly.

Same. Especially when it is a life or death scenario with ticks. Just not worth the risk IMO.

Yep me too. if it were only for fleas then it wouldn't be too much of a worry, but with ticks? No way.

[OSoSwift]

Have I complained about poor performance? No, do I have a tick issue? No, even the heartworm risk down here is a very small one.

To say the health of my animals is not of paramount importance is wrong an down right rude and offensive. Maybe the vets whom I have spoken to that have suggested splitting it should be the ones who get spoken to?

My animals are extremely important to me thank you very much!

[flame ryder]

I do this with Frontline, It was actually recommended to me by my vet. I have 3 dogs of different sizes and each dog was weighed and the vet wrote down the exact amount to give each dog. I am in SA and no ticks here, so just for fleas.

[Bullbreedlover]

It is the same scenario for all products that contain and active ingredient of Imidicloprid ie all Advantix, Advocate and Advantage and all products that use N methypyrrolidone as the emulsion. Most topical parasiticides are in this category too. ie Frontline, ect

It is an extremely dangerous and stupid practice to save a couple of $ especially in Tick preparations due to the risk of death that can AND DOES result.

It is also a main reason why people who do this are the first to complain of poor performance of products such as persistent flea problems and/or tick attachment. The correct dosing is HIGHLY IMPORTANT.

The practice of splitting doses indicates that the health of their animals is not of paramount importance and ignorance is asking for trouble. Cost cutting in this manner is playing russian roulette with your animals.

I hope this helps save the lives of some canines.

I have heard many times about dogs having ticks attached even though they have been treated correctly or are wearing tick collars. So does that mean there is poor performance on those products???

One thing that bugs me is how these products(and heartworm products) have a weight range yet they say you cant split the product if your dog is on the low side of that range. But it is OK to give your dog the full dose, so they say. ie your dog weighs 47 kilos. The product covers dogs from 45 through to 70kgs. So in effect you are overdosing your 47 kilo dog??????????

[Rappie]

Maybe the vets whom I have spoken to that have suggested splitting it should be the ones who get spoken to?

Probably.

There is specific legislation regarding ectoparasiticide treatments that prohibits veterinarians from altering the product usage instructions.

As mentioned, the carrier may not have the active ingredients evenly suspended, and there needs to be a specific proportion of carrier to actives to ensure the dose is absorbed properly.

[Rappie]

It is the same scenario for all products that contain and active ingredient of Imidicloprid ie all Advantix, Advocate and Advantage and all products that use N methypyrrolidone as the emulsion. Most topical parasiticides are in this category too. ie Frontline, ect

It is an extremely dangerous and stupid practice to save a couple of $ especially in Tick preparations due to the risk of death that can AND DOES result.

It is also a main reason why people who do this are the first to complain of poor performance of products such as persistent flea problems and/or tick attachment. The correct dosing is HIGHLY IMPORTANT.

The practice of splitting doses indicates that the health of their animals is not of paramount importance and ignorance is asking for trouble. Cost cutting in this manner is playing russian roulette with your animals.

I hope this helps save the lives of some canines.

I have heard many times about dogs having ticks attached even though they have been treated correctly or are wearing tick collars. So does that mean there is poor performance on those products???

One thing that bugs me is how these products(and heartworm products) have a weight range yet they say you cant split the product if your dog is on the low side of that range. But it is OK to give your dog the full dose, so they say. ie your dog weighs 47 kilos. The product covers dogs from 45 through to 70kgs. So in effect you are overdosing your 47 kilo dog??????????

The dose contained within each tablet or vial contains at least the minimum dose required for effect (for the largest size patient) and a dose that is still within (ie. does not exceed) the safe, therapeutic dose range of the particular drug (for the smallest size patient. The most important aspect of the treatment is making sure that the dose give is "enough". In the case of most heartworm treatments the dose rate used for heartworm prevent is much lower than dose rates used for for the same drugs to treat other problems (the most common example is ivermectin for heartworm vs demodectic mange).

[sheena]

NO IT IS NOT OK>

Re the comments above ie Buying an XL dog size and Splitting it by syringe, THIS PRACTICE is extremely dangerous and totally unsafe for tick protection. The active ingredients of Imidicloprid and Permethrin are suspended in an emulsion called methylpyrilliodine. This emulsion DOES NOT "MIX" the active ingredients EVENLY even with shaking The active particles stay self suspended. So by dividing the dose, you may actually be drawing up pure emulsion and NO ACTIVES, thereby giving one dog a dose of NOTHING and the other dog a dose that is for the weight range stated on the packaging. IT IS SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS and absolutely leaving your dogs at risk of DEATH.

It is a bit like pouring an alcoholic spirit drink when you see the alcohol at the bottom and the coke on top. The difference being when you mix the drink it stays mixed. Methylpyrilliodine DOES NOT stay mixed EVER. the other additives in topicals are bittering agents to deter other dogs (or children) from tasting or licking off the actives at the time of application, and a stabiliser to assist the product to stay active and keep shelf life until the expiry date of the product.

There is something I do not understand from this information. Firstly I have been splitting my doses for 5 years or more now & never had a problem...secondly I was advised by my vet AND the supplier of the spot-on that this was a normal practice & was quite acceptable. But the one thing that doesn't make sense, is if the emulsion does not mix, then how do they make the stuff & get it into the viles in the first place. Surely it is just mixed in a big vat then a machine puts it into the viles. So if the active ingredient does not mix then how do they mix it to manufacture it...same thing as pouring it into an egg cup, giving it a good mix with the syringe then applying it to two dogs. Also, when it is applied in several spots along the back like they advise on the packet for bigger dogs, then some spots would have the active ingredient & others wouldn't. We live in a high tick area & I have not had any more of a problem with ticks since I have been splitting it, then before when I wasn't. In fact I have less problem now, as I apply it right down the back. We have a similar type tickicide for the calves & that just comes in a 5 litre container & is measured out & applied along the back...it obviously doesn't have any trouble mixing & the bottle is so big you can't even give it a good shake. I cannot for the life of me understand why they would put an active ingredient into a medium in which it did not mix. Where did you get your information from??????

ETA... I just Googled methylpyrilliodine & came up with nothing except that it's common use is a paint stripper. So I would be interested to know where Nowstarin got the information

Edited October 14, 2012 by sheena

[Alyosha]

Using a chemical product in a manner contrary to the label directions may be illegal. For a whole range of reasons.

The Advantix label for dogs over 25kg can be read here: http://www.infopest.com.au/extra/asp/infopest/nra/labels.asp?prodcode=58262

Please note that it also says this (for good reason): Failure to use this product strictly as directed may be illegal, prove dangerous or render the product ineffective.

In NSW off label use and offences are enforced by the DPI: http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/livestock/residues/stock-medicine

If your vet is advising you to split doses, it may be important that you (and your vet) cover your backsides and do so under prescription.

[sheena]

Using a chemical product in a manner contrary to the label directions may be illegal. For a whole range of reasons.

The Advantix label for dogs over 25kg can be read here: http://www.infopest.com.au/extra/asp/infopest/nra/labels.asp?prodcode=58262

Please note that it also says this (for good reason): Failure to use this product strictly as directed may be illegal, prove dangerous or render the product ineffective.

In NSW off label use and offences are enforced by the DPI: http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/livestock/residues/stock-medicine

If your vet is advising you to split doses, it may be important that you (and your vet) cover your backsides and do so under prescription.

It doesn't say on the Advantix informatiion or precautions that it cannot be split, so how can that be contrary to the instructions or deemed illegal if it doesn't advise not to split. It doesn't even say that the WHOLE tube must be applied. And what about where it says to divide the dose up along the dogs back....surely this means that some spots would not have the active ingredient.

It is still being used as directed...just that the dose is being split after thorough mixing.

Edited October 14, 2012 by sheena

[Bullbreedlover]

It is the same scenario for all products that contain and active ingredient of Imidicloprid ie all Advantix, Advocate and Advantage and all products that use N methypyrrolidone as the emulsion. Most topical parasiticides are in this category too. ie Frontline, ect

It is an extremely dangerous and stupid practice to save a couple of $ especially in Tick preparations due to the risk of death that can AND DOES result.

It is also a main reason why people who do this are the first to complain of poor performance of products such as persistent flea problems and/or tick attachment. The correct dosing is HIGHLY IMPORTANT.

The practice of splitting doses indicates that the health of their animals is not of paramount importance and ignorance is asking for trouble. Cost cutting in this manner is playing russian roulette with your animals.

I hope this helps save the lives of some canines.

And for those who are planning to breed from their dogs and did not know it methypyrrolidone should NOT be used as it has been identified as a reproductive toxicant.

Nowstarin...you say this immulsion does not mix the active ingredients of the products. If not then why the heck do they use it? It is a solvent!

Methypyrrolidone........solvent

[sheena]

It is the same scenario for all products that contain and active ingredient of Imidicloprid ie all Advantix, Advocate and Advantage and all products that use N methypyrrolidone as the emulsion. Most topical parasiticides are in this category too. ie Frontline, ect

It is an extremely dangerous and stupid practice to save a couple of $ especially in Tick preparations due to the risk of death that can AND DOES result.

It is also a main reason why people who do this are the first to complain of poor performance of products such as persistent flea problems and/or tick attachment. The correct dosing is HIGHLY IMPORTANT.

The practice of splitting doses indicates that the health of their animals is not of paramount importance and ignorance is asking for trouble. Cost cutting in this manner is playing russian roulette with your animals.

I hope this helps save the lives of some canines.

And for those who are planning to breed from their dogs and did not know it methypyrrolidone should NOT be used as it has been identified as a reproductive toxicant.

Nowstarin...you say this immulsion does not mix the active ingredients of the products. If not then why the heck do they use it? It is a solvent!

Methypyrrolidone........solvent

Bull breeder....from my apparantly very limited knowledge of spot-ons :) it is my understanding that the insecticide in these products work by evenly distributing themselves over the entire body of the animal, & someone told me it attaches to the bottom of the hair follicles (not sure on that one)...but I would say the role of methypyrrolidone would as a means of carrying the insecticide over the body of the animal, & I can't see how it could do that if the two products actually repel each other.