Dingo Pups For Sale

[MalteseLuna]

There are several colours that pure dingoes can be - ginger (may have light sabling), white, black, black & tan. Often Ginger dogs have white markings (socks/tail tips).

Slightly off topic but interesting, these are the colours shibas are found in as well, right down to often shareing a black mask as pups :D

Yup - but the coat colour genes are quite old so it doesn't mean much :p The more modern colours are brindling and patchy colours (including merle) which aren't often found in older breeds. Most dog breeds have small or defined colour patterns because of selective breeding.

Dingoes are known to hunt alone a lot of the time so pack theory is weak at best, I'll try and find the study I was reading about it the other day.

Other dogs can become a valuable 'pack' if indeed the dingo is a pack animal as they do get along quite well usually. I still don't consider a dingo a 'wild' animal and most textbooks don't either. They are not considered a 'true' wild dog in a lot of a scientific circles. Also the dingo's ability to adapt is there to see plainly, from the pet ones I have viewed since I started researching this topic they seem happy, well adjusted and content animals. Yes they have more acute senses that need special handling and care but dingo savvy people can provide that.

Sure but that doesn't really mean much :) Politics gets mixed in :) By many experts they are considered a wild dog, one that is not fully domesticated. rather a proto- or pre-domesticate.

Thank goodness, you are wondering the same as me.

As to the confusion as to whether the Australian Dingo is a "wild" or feral dog. One must look at the orign of the animal. This extract from a journal article written by Savolainen et al. (2004) can give some in sight (please see full reference at the bottom of this post.)

" The dingo originated from a population of East Asian dogs. Type A29 was one of several domestic dog mtDNA types brought into Island Southeast Asia, but only A29 reached Australia. The dingo population was probably founded from a small number of animals, as the last trickle of domestic dogs through a series of bottlenecks, or even by a single chance event and has since remained effectively isolated from other dog populations. The dingoes may have arrived in connection with the expansion, starting ≈6,000 yr ago, from south China into Island Southeast Asia of the Austronesian culture. By this time, domestic dogs had existed for several thousand years (4, 11), and the present semidomestic state of the dingo can probably be attributed to a long existence as a feral animal. After >3,500 years of isolation, the dingoes represent a unique isolate of early undifferentiated dogs. "

From this we can conclude that the dingo is not a truly wild breed of dog, but semidomesticated to feral breed. Hence more likely to integrate well into a cohabitation enviroment with humans.

Anecdotal evidence has shown that dingo can be a more sociable animal than some recognized breeds of domestic dog.

• Savolainen, P. Leitner, T. Wilton, A,N. Matisoo-Smith,E. Lundeberg, J. (2004) A detailed picture of the origin of the Australian dingo, obtained from the study of mitochondrial DNA. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. Vol. 101 no. 33 12387-12390
  

Link to full article below.[/font]

http://www.pnas.org/content/101/33/12387.full

Thats an 'old' paper - there is a more recent paper by those authors/groups which re-estimated the arrival to between 4,000-18,000 years BP. In science there are no real "finite" results - new results come to light and change or evolve the current understandings. The nuclear paper which was cited before (VonHoldt et al 2010) again suggested dingoes are an "ancient" breed possibly diverging before true domestication too place.

To me a major issue is a real scientific definition of wild vs feral or native vs introduced. It varies between publications/articles and there is no real consensus. Until we have that it all depends upon the experts opinion etc. To be honest it's beneficial for the AU government to consider dingoes as a feral - allows them to be culled vigorously to promote livestock. Interesting that most articles discussing culls always use "wild dog" rather than dingo. Removing dingoes poses serious issues to ecological functioning of australian ecosystems - they are the sole remaining top predator (and have been for 4000+ years).

[orrd]

[quote

name=orrd' timestamp='1350369506' post='5988028]

Oh , so we have a pro BSL troll in our Midst

no we dont actually?? - someone doesn't agree with you so that makes them a proffesional troll, or at least a feeble attempt by you to control a conversation by making character assination from behind a key board - i would be offended but the old saying about how only a fool would be offended by the words of of a fool.

proffesional BSL troll - nice - the relevance to the topic is so tenuous it is basically non existent, hence you are baiting, off topic, belligerent, contributing nothing to the discussion and inflammatory cyber-bullying - who is the the real troll assol.

i call yr feeble bullying attempt - lets both pm our phone numbers and identities to forum admin - i got no agenda other than a discussion on topics i find either interesting or personally important - whats yr agenda with the BSL - paranoid pit bull owner or something?? yr post seems to fit the profile.

nice try assol

Edited October 16, 2012 by orrd

[MalteseLuna]

Interestingly many state governments define dingoes as indigenous (native) in legislation. Yet other legislations allow or require culling. Seems illogical/incongruent.

Example - Fraser Island is a world heritage site and dingoes are classed as indigenous in QLD (and/or protected in "national parks") - also pure/intact populations are supposed to be conserved. Yet there is active culling on Fraser Island. Mainly for economic/human benefit.

[Weasels]

Interestingly many state governments define dingoes as indigenous (native) in legislation. Yet other legislations allow or require culling. Seems illogical/incongruent.

Example - Fraser Island is a world heritage site and dingoes are classed as indigenous in QLD (and/or protected in "national parks") - also pure/intact populations are supposed to be conserved. Yet there is active culling on Fraser Island. Mainly for economic/human benefit.

Whenever someone asks me if dingoes are native I run from the room yelling "I'm not getting involved!!"

Edited October 16, 2012 by Weasels

[MalteseLuna]

Interestingly many state governments define dingoes as indigenous (native) in legislation. Yet other legislations allow or require culling. Seems illogical/incongruent.

Example - Fraser Island is a world heritage site and dingoes are classed as indigenous in QLD (and/or protected in "national parks") - also pure/intact populations are supposed to be conserved. Yet there is active culling on Fraser Island. Mainly for economic/human benefit.

Whenever someone asks me if dingoes are native I run from the room yelling "I'm not getting involved!!"

Haha - I rarely get asked that specific question. I wasn't really commenting on my personal opinion but rather the legislative definitions and in-congruency etc :D

[orrd]

Interestingly many state governments define dingoes as indigenous (native) in legislation. Yet other legislations allow or require culling. Seems illogical/incongruent.

Example - Fraser Island is a world heritage site and dingoes are classed as indigenous in QLD (and/or protected in "national parks") - also pure/intact populations are supposed to be conserved. Yet there is active culling on Fraser Island. Mainly for economic/human benefit.

interesting - i can't see how a wild animal populations that has been living geographically isolated and intact for thousands of years could be considered anything other than wild indigenous animals - the technical academic definitions are clearly problematic - scientists choose convenient ways to classify things based on always arguable criteria eg the pluto is no longer a planet international media fiasco - the definitions do get reviewed and updated and things can fall into more than one category eg the animal kingdom groups.

i don't doubt that there may be political pressure to define away the categorisation of the dingo to deny it wild and give it feral staus due to the historical link between the traditional sheep based economy and dingoes as a threat to that revenue stream.

hell the GSD was banned forever due to cocky fears of them crossing into dingo populations and wiping out sheep numbers - hysteria that turned into policy.

[Weasels]

interesting - i can't see how a wild animal populations that has been living geographically isolated and intact for thousands of years could be considered anything other than wild indigenous animals

It depends on who's asking, and why they're asking.

To an evolutionary biologist, a few thousand years is nothing. Because dingoes haven't been in Aus long enough to evolve in conjunction with the native marsupials it makes no sense to consider them native. When looking at questions of how the Australian native fauna arose and evolved, the dingo isn't part of that picture.

But to an ecologist, dingoes have been here long enough to integrate into almost all of our ecosystems, and interact with other fauna in a significant way (by being our largest terrestrial predator). Many ecologists view dingoes as a substitute for our lost thylacine, in that it fulfils a similar ecological role, so talking about them as a native/naturalised part of our fauna does make sense.

[cannibalgoldfish]

interesting - i can't see how a wild animal populations that has been living geographically isolated and intact for thousands of years could be considered anything other than wild indigenous animals

Isn't there new lines of research to suggest feral cats have been here longer than one thought? Perhaps predating European settlement?

[MalteseLuna]

interesting - i can't see how a wild animal populations that has been living geographically isolated and intact for thousands of years could be considered anything other than wild indigenous animals

It depends on who's asking, and why they're asking.

To an evolutionary biologist, a few thousand years is nothing. Because dingoes haven't been in Aus long enough to evolve in conjunction with the native marsupials it makes no sense to consider them native. When looking at questions of how the Australian native fauna arose and evolved, the dingo isn't part of that picture.

But to an ecologist, dingoes have been here long enough to integrate into almost all of our ecosystems, and interact with other fauna in a significant way (by being our largest terrestrial predator). Many ecologists view dingoes as a substitute for our lost thylacine, in that it fulfils a similar ecological role, so talking about them as a native/naturalised part of our fauna does make sense.

[Weasels]

interesting - i can't see how a wild animal populations that has been living geographically isolated and intact for thousands of years could be considered anything other than wild indigenous animals

It depends on who's asking, and why they're asking.

To an evolutionary biologist, a few thousand years is nothing. Because dingoes haven't been in Aus long enough to evolve in conjunction with the native marsupials it makes no sense to consider them native. When looking at questions of how the Australian native fauna arose and evolved, the dingo isn't part of that picture.

But to an ecologist, dingoes have been here long enough to integrate into almost all of our ecosystems, and interact with other fauna in a significant way (by being our largest terrestrial predator). Many ecologists view dingoes as a substitute for our lost thylacine, in that it fulfils a similar ecological role, so talking about them as a native/naturalised part of our fauna does make sense.

And having worked as both in the last few years, I have no opinion :laugh:

[orrd]

OK then let me refine the question - the context here is primarily a pet forum considering the pets laregely as companion type animals, give or take some more specialised sport or service roles.

1. from a behavioural perpective (not any taxinomical or other type classification) what traits/behaviours characterise a wild animal of the canine variety (but not limited to) with reference to an isolated population surviving in a distinct ecological niche for thousands of years.

2. from a behavioural perpective (not any taxinomical or other type classification) how would one distinguish/discriminate/classify/order between the traits/behaviour characteristics of a wild animal of the canine variety (but not limited to) with reference to an isolated population surviving in a distinct ecological niche to a feral animal in an isolated population surviving in a distinct ecological niche for thousands of years.

3. is it possible for a domesticated animal species to become wild given thousands of years and generations surviving in ecological isolation and independent of any human contact or will at most they will only be feral.

4. some tropical wild fish species have been observed in southern waters due to warmer ocean temperatures, does that wild fish cross a physical boundary such that when it swims over it its status goes from wild to feral and back again as it swims back and forth over that physical boundary.

any input would be appreciatted.

do scientists apply the same definitions of indigenous versus feral to human populations - all animals.

Edited October 17, 2012 by orrd

[Are You Serious Jo]

I'm in the consider them indigenous camp. We've seen some fairly rapid behavioural changes in species that are co-existing with cane toads, some can now safely eat them. Haven't heard the cat story though, what evidence is there they may pre-date European settlement?

[MalteseLuna]

Isn't there new lines of research to suggest feral cats have been here longer than one thought? Perhaps predating European settlement?

I've never heard that before... I'm off to google scholar

Wasn't able to find anything...

[orrd]

Isn't there new lines of research to suggest feral cats have been here longer than one thought? Perhaps predating European settlement?

I've never heard that before... I'm off to google scholar

Wasn't able to find anything...

err is that feral cats or wild cats???

jk

i will go to the grave with pluto as a planet and dingoes as wild indigenous australian dogs - science can sue me.

[asal]

that was a reply to someone else, about something else using someone else's quote...i'm confused

wonder what the Chamberlain family would have to say about all this.

So because Azaria (RIP) was killed by a dingo, an individual dingo, you are now condemning the whole dingo race as wild, untrustworthy creatures that should remain where they are? I fear you have had very little to do with a well raised pet dingoes.

sorry missed that the first time - YES, YES, YES thats EXACTLY and ALL i am saying.

someone finally gets it.

OK don't get rude.

since your reply in purple to what is said in red then how can what you said be interpreted as any but pro Breed Specific Legislation?

getting all snarly doesnt change that.

actually it wasnt me who decided you must be a troll. believe it or not others in the house were reading it too. made the suggestion and found the song for you.

incidently that chap is a world famous singer. worth listening too anyway.

far more children (and adults) have died from the attacks of known domestic breeds if the papers are to be believed. The excuse for the introduction of BSL in the first place.

then you cite one and condem a race? Same mindset, same waste of innocent lives for any that are judged to 'look' like.

might be worth the effort to remove a littlie of the froth n foam from your previous post

just realised you said "proffesional BSL troll"?

In the debates I and the family n friends there has always been the Pro side and the Con side.

Pro BSL means 'FOR BSL'

Pro means 'for' and con means 'against'

Edited October 17, 2012 by asal

[orrd]

that was a reply to someone else, about something else using someone else's quote...i'm confused

wonder what the Chamberlain family would have to say about all this.

So because Azaria (RIP) was killed by a dingo, an individual dingo, you are now condemning the whole dingo race as wild, untrustworthy creatures that should remain where they are? I fear you have had very little to do with a well raised pet dingoes.

sorry missed that the first time - YES, YES, YES thats EXACTLY and ALL i am saying.

someone finally gets it.

OK don't get rude.

since your reply in purple to what is said in red then how can what you said be interpreted as any but pro Breed Specific Legislation?

getting all snarly doesnt change that.

actually it wasnt me who decided you must be a troll. believe it or not others in the house were reading it too. made the suggestion and found the song for you.

incidently that chap is a world famous singer. worth listening too anyway.

far more children (and adults) have died from the attacks of known domestic breeds if the papers are to be believed. The excuse for the introduction of BSL in the first place.

then you cite one and condem a race? Same mindset, same waste of innocent lives for any that are judged to 'look' like.

might be worth the effort to remove a littlie of the froth n foam from your previous post

just realised you said "proffesional BSL troll"?

In the debates I and the family n friends there has always been the Pro side and the Con side.

Pro BSL means 'FOR BSL'

Pro means 'for' and con means 'against'

lol i thought you were calling me a proffesional troll as in "pro", didn't think of the other debate meaning.

to be honest i actually was not familiar with BSL and had to look it up so in one sense you were wrong but the twist is once i learned what BSL is then i have to say to a limited extent i am pro BSL. so you were right but not for the reasons you thought. i am not really for the legislation in detail as i have only briefly read the intent but for the protection of dogs and people i think there is a logic to it that appeals to me. can't explain all my reasons now but in short some (many but not all) of the bully breed owners i have talked really have no business owning a dog selectively bred with an inbuilt hair trigger (and many do if you have seen the real ones) and genetically selected animal aggression - genetics is real and so are the consequences, some real morons own these dogs and the dogs end up filling the pounds awaiting destruction, they are mostly purchased (as a blanket statement) as penis extensions by insecure males, based on my limited experience of talking to a lot of people that own these dogs - they have no job for them - they like the look.

BSL imo is totaly appropriatte in these cases and i would support any vote to extend it to dingoes as is already the case in some states.

i also support a policy of punishing incompetent owners and protecting the dogs. complex issues but in being wrong you are right and i didn't even know what BSL was.

i got no problem with you man/lady, the weak dogs that judged me tho should have spoke for themselves instead of putting you up to posting the troll vid.

are we all good now - no probs my end, just another dog nut here.

cheers

[LizT]

Found this, intersting.

The dingo came to Australia via southern China, and much earlier than previously thought, says new research.

The dingo (Canis lupus dingo) arrived possibly 18,000 years ago in Australia, via China. (Credit: Wikimedia)

THE DINGO (Canis lupus dingo) first appeared in Australia's archaeological records in 3500-year-old rock paintings in the Pilbara region of WA, but the new evidence suggests they were roaming Australia long before that.

DNA samples from domestic Asian dog species and the Australian dingo have shed light on how the iconic canine arrived on Australian soil.

According to a study by an international research team, genetic data shows the dingo may have originated in southern China, travelling through mainland southeast Asia and Indonesia to reach its destination anywhere between 4600 and 18,300 years ago.

Dingo theory debunked

Published in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B, the study also debunks the previously held belief dingoes travelled to Australia via Taiwan and the Philippines, making several sea crossings.

"Clearly, the land route is much more feasible for dogs than the sea route," says Dr Alan Wilton, a geneticist from the University of NSW, Sydney, and one of the researchers involved in the study.

The research also suggests the New Guinea singing dog, a smaller version of the dingo, travelled along the same land route to arrive in New Guinea.

The geneticists took mitochondrial DNA samples from more than 900 domestic dogs across Asia - south China, southeast Asia, Indonesia, New Guinea, the Philippines and Taiwan - as well as pre-European samples from Polynesia and the Australian dingo, to make genetic comparisons.

The results show domestic dogs came from southern China over 10,000 years ago. The most likely story, say the researchers, is that dingoes and New Guinea singing dogs then dispersed to their destinations via a separate route to the dogs that arrived with Polynesia's first people 3000 years ago. They also made the journey much earlier.

Dingo from the Fraser Island population View Gallery

Dingo enigma solved

"This is huge for the dingo. This study really confirms an enigma which has been with us with dingos all the time: where did the animal come from, or more specifically, how did it get here?" says Lyn Watson, co-founder of the Dingo Discovery Sanctuary and Research Centre near Melbourne. "We never really bought the story that it came by boat."

Dr Bret Heath, a biologist from Central Queensland University, says while the study doesn't fill all the gaps in our knowledge about how the dingo made it to Australia, the DNA evidence is compelling: "Mitochondrial DNA is most useful in studies of closely related organisms in low abundance, possibly adapting rapidly to new or different habitats - and hence displaying a rapid mutation rate."

Dingo arrival sheds light on human evolution

Perhaps the most important element of the study, says Bret, is the light that it sheds on the human origins of the Polynesian culture.

Despite a sparse archaeological record for dog species in southeast Asia and Polynesia, there is a direct link between the spread of the Neolithic culture, Austronesian languages and the arrival of dogs in the region. But the researchers claim the dingo arrived in Australia before the Neolithic period, possibly during early trade between pre-Neolithic groups.

"The dispersal of dogs is also linked to the human history of the region," they write, which may add to our knowledge about "the geographical origins of the Polynesian population and its Neolithic culture, and the extent of contact between the pre-Neolithic cultures of Australia with the surrounding world."

They admit there is more work to be done to find out how the dingo was introduced to Australia, and whether it arrived as a domestic or wild dog.

RELATED ARTICLES

Dingoes skilled at reading human gestures

Purebred dingoes face extinction in Australia

GALLERY: dingoes

Dingoes are smarter than your average dog

On this day: Azaria Chamberlain taken by a dingo?

PNG find prompts human migration rethink

DNA reveals new route of Pacific migration

...More stories about dingoes

[asal]

I agree with you it is the people who use dogs as an ego tool that need legislating about. Breeching Civil Liberties is a very hard accusation to get past.

I think the politicians took the easier route. targeting the breeds of dog instead of the mindset of such people who teach their dogs to be weapons.

any breed can be set to be a weapon of attack, but different breeds and types have cyclonic times of fashion. Some are petrifyingly efficient.

I think i would rather be attacked by a toy poodle, chi or any other smrf than a pit bull, rottie, dobe or german shepherd which have tended to be the breeds of choice , although now the neo and logoto have been added to the mix, pig dogs in all their forms are popular as well.

aust cattledogs id rather face too, id rather my ankle or leg gone for than torn to the ground and shredded, like the afore mentioned breeds, yes i was born to acd's in the yard. ,the highest bite i can recall from a very affonted dog was the backside of a vet who insisted he would not allow anyone to carry his bag to the car. He had just vaccinated the dogs.

It was dad's turn to be affonted when the vet had the hide to send dad the bill for his new suit. holes in the coat and the trouser's apparently.

Dads dogs were guard dogs in the true and real sense. no one was allowed to put anything in their vehicles except the staff.

All the customers knew the rules, the staff sure did, the dogs knew the rules.

the vet was a nit.

they were the days before video camera to prevent theft. very effective.

:)

shoplifting just didnt happen well that was in the 50's though another world now isnt it.

Edited October 17, 2012 by asal

[asal]

can't explain all my reasons now but in short some (many but not all) of the bully breed owners i have talked really have no business owning a dog selectively bred with an inbuilt hair trigger (and many do if you have seen the real ones) and genetically selected animal aggression- genetics is real and so are the consequences, some real morons own these dogs and the dogs end up filling the pounds awaiting destruction, they are mostly purchased (as a blanket statement) as penis extensions by insecure males, based on my limited experience of talking to a lot of people that own these dogs - they have no job for them - they like the look.

BSL imo is totaly appropriatte in these cases and i would support any vote to extend it to dingoes as is already the case in some states.

i also support a policy of punishing incompetent owners and protecting the dogs. complex issues but in being wrong you are right and i didn't even know what BSL was.

i got no problem with you man/lady, the weak dogs that judged me tho should have spoke for themselves instead of putting you up to posting the troll vid.

are we all good now - no probs my end, just another dog nut here.

cheers

Regarding what you said in red, yes I know this is true, these types of dogs are a race apart from the ones belonging to responsible people.

The parents and pups are selected for aggression; many for generations, these dogs are just about a subspecies of the breed they are descended from.

That is why I don’t support BSL. Visually you cannot tell the difference. Temperamentally though, a world apart.

When I was a child there were parts of the town I grew up in that you simply did not go there unless with a friend who was part of that world. Or the dogs would not be called off if they went for you. The attack on sight ones that could not be called off, usually lived out their lives on chains until wanted.

I am stumped how you can feel dingo’s can be lumped into that group at all, they are nothing like those dogs whatsoever. The ones I have met have assimilated easily, only those who know dingo’s have recognised what they are. Joe public wouldn’t have a clue. ACD's display many of the same traits, that’s why the dingo was added to their genes. They are smart, intuitive, certainly not by nature savage, although ACD’s certainly will protect whatever they perceive as their owners property (even a soiled nappy, discarded by it's toddler) and their owner.

Although there are still failures, I well remember a lady asking if she put her ACD in pup maybe that would make her more maternal towards her new baby. THAT is definatly NOT ACD temprement. She could not let her ACD into the same room as her new baby, she would immediately seek to attack the child.

It was very hard to get her to understand, that dog was dangerous and not to be bred from, or ever allowed access to her child. (My own parents and anyone I knew would have put the dog down as not worth the risk, she would not consider that). By contrast when our grandchildren were born, both Rosie and Benni took one sniff at the new arrivals and any time our daughter in law took the babies out in the stroller there were two "guard" dogs stationed either side of her and the stroller, eyeing off any one else in the street. Just in case, as Benni and Rosie would have told you.

Edited October 17, 2012 by asal

[orrd]

the internet is so painful to explain anything - i don't think dingoes fall into the same category as breeds bred for generation and selected specifically to go against all of nature and fight members of their own species to the death - i am not retarded - i in general agree with a limited form of BSL - which would include limited ownership of the dingo - I DO NOT MEAN ALL DINGOES SHOULD BE DESTRYOYED - I DO NOT EQUATE DINGOES AND PIT BULLS - i am refferring to ownership of these animals as pets. if no one owned one as a pet and they flourished in their natural environment in a protected parcel of land eg national park away from clashes with land owners so they don'e get shot, die painfully in traps that maim them, die horribly from 10-80, cross breed with domestic dogs becuase irresponsible owners can't control their pets....etc, etc then i would personally be happy.

hope that is clear enough - i am not linking dingoes to pit bulls in behaviour, and i do not support BSL as destroying all dogs based on a specific breed, i support that dog ownership should be more regulated and YES due to certain dog traits, certain phenotypes/looks that attract certain human personality types i think some breeds as a blanket statement come under the microscope, even tho most of the banned breeds in oz have never ever entered this country!!! - so there is no evidence to support their banning here, it is baggage from the worst of human kind that decent people are punished for.

this is biology so you will always find numerous examples of individuals that DO NOT fit the stereotype or genetics but when dealing with ignorant, uneducated masses of people external legislative controls are the simplest easiest most efficient way (NOT THE BEST WAY) of getting a message out, it will not stop the complete ignorant, no laws on anything ever have stopped some people doing anything ever in the history of law but across whole cultures and populations there has to be some controls or attempts at them and the good will suffer the most, thats life in the big city.

all this is my opinion obviously and trying to explain complex issues on the net is always going to not work well.

don't know how you interpretted my posts as somehow being anti... cull em all dingo??? but you did. i can't explain my position any better than i just did.

my personal dogs are not pets and the price i pay as an owner is constant round the clock vigilance and never being able to relax for a minute when the public are involved, in fact they rarely get exposed to the general public and when they do its under strict physical controls and restraints, self imposed constraints by a responsible dog owner, sux for me and my dogs in some ways as they are almost completely isolated from the public and will never be allowed to just hang out at a dog show or whatever but thats how it has to be everyday for their entire existence. and when idiot pet owners with FiFi off leash comes running up barking and snarling at my restrained dogs trying to mind their own business and i have to choke my own dogs that are being assualted to stop Fifi becoming dead FIfi i'm somehow the bad guy???????

i got more to be threatened by BSL tahn most but i still support a form of it along the lines of punishing the owners. BTW before you assume i do not own bully breeds or crosses thereof.