Growth Support

[oakway]

he does have a sliight arch in his lower back that does look a little uncomfortable and he is not a fan of anyone toughing his lower back, he turns around and smiles.

Ok.. just to ease your mind and make sure nothing's amiss .. maybe get a referral to an orthopaedic vet or similar? Then you could just plan ahead :)

I agree.

With the further information you have given OP I don't believe this is a simple give Vit. C now.

Hope all goes well for you and the dog.

[persephone]

With the further information you have given OP I don't believe this is a simple give Vit. C now.

..keep us posted on how the vet visit goes ... :)

[TheCheekyMonster]

Will do, my poor spotted man, its never ending he just gets into so much mischief! here is a photo of his stronger side :) hahah... but on the serious note i think crating during the day until his walking/running normally i think will be needed

[megan_]

Have you spoken to a greyhound vet or one that is an expert in physiology (not a stock standard vet).

My boys core isn't well developed (although he has never buckled under like to described, he just gets a sore muscle in his back if he does too much) so I took him to Ray Ferguson here in Vic. There must be a QLD alternative? He treated us then sent us to a proper dog physio who sees a lot of sporting dogs(she has a masters in canine physio). She gave us a set of exercises to help build his core and behind. This includes simple things like hind leg awareness (most dogs don't really use their hind legs, they need to be aware of them before they can use them) and core exercises (peanut and balance disks).

She also recommended leash walks (this forces dogs to use their back legs, whereas running is good cardio exercise but you'll find the back legs don't get used often). She also recommended leash walks on the beach - again beach running doesn't do that much for strength.

I'd look into these as a way of building strength, but only after seeing a reputable vet or physio to okay it first - otherwise you could just be doing more damage. He may need rest for a while, but unless he builds strength/muscle it will just be a recurring issue.

[persephone]

on the serious note i think crating during the day until his walking/running normally i think will be needed

may be ..it will be interesting to see what is recommended in the way of exercise/physio etc . he is a handsome boy :)

[TheCheekyMonster]

We saw Gary Barnsley, I think he is excellent in his feild him and his son deal with greyhounds and what he did was fabulous but maybe i need to go back and see him as well to see if there is anything else we can do.

I know persepnone!!, he has grown up way too fast and his this big mature handsome dalmatian with a sly personality

Edited October 11, 2012 by TheCheekyMonster

[espinay2]

OK, this thread is worrying me greatly. This is NOT normal and needs way more than a chiro. It is highly unlikely from the description you have given that this will just 'go away'.

This needs SPECIALIST help IMO. Get an appointment with an orthopedic specialist ASAP. You need a proper diagnosis! (and likely x-rays)

What is his diet? (and what has it been?). A change of diet may be called for and IMO I would actually probably be feeding this dog similar to feeding a giant breed growing dog with issues. That means SLOWING growth, making sure the dog is lean and not creating problems through over nutrition. If feeding dry food your dog should be on a suitable adult food. I would suggest Pro Plan Performance which is also suitable for growing large breed puppies and does not contain too much calcium (too much calcium is a big problem with growing large breed dogs). If feeding a raw diet, you may need to adjust that too - let me know if you need help with that

If you can monitor his urine adequately, then Vit C may be worth adding - use either esther C or sodium ascorbate as these are the only two types shown to be effective. 900 to 1000mg a day if he can take it.

HAve a read of info relating to large/giant breed growth issues. While a Dally is not normally considered in this category, it really does sound like your dog is displaying all the issues that in my own breed would have me VERY concerned.

There are also some red flags in your post - 'forced' exercise and stair climbing for example - that in a larger breed would be an indicator of trouble and it may well also be for your dog too.

Below is info cut and pasted from my puppy packs on exercise which IMO could be relevant in your case. Also an article regarding exercise.

As mentioned, this needs a SPECIALIST opinion. I would not be stuffing around. This really needed to be dealt with earlier than this, but you may be able to do something if you do it now. Leave it longer and a good chance you will not as the earlier you correct it the better you can fix it.

Exercise and your Puppy

A very important part of bringing your new Pyrenean puppy up correctly will be to ensure it has the right amount and type of exercise. It is important to remember that the wrong type of exercise can damage growing bones and joints. Growing puppy bones are soft at the 'growth plates'. Bones grow by forming new soft cartilage which later forms into harder bone. Damage to these soft parts of the bone may result in bones not growing correctly and can lead or contribute to issues such as Hip and Elbow Dysplasia, Osteochondritis Dessicans (OCD) and later development of arthritis.

What NOT to Do

The most damaging forms of exercise for a young Pyrenean are the following:

Regular use of stairs, in particular running up and down

Jumping from a height such as out of a vehicle, off a retaining wall or off a bed or furniture.

Rough play, such as body slamming, blocking or being rolled, particularly with a larger dog.

Long walks on lead, particularly on hard surfaces such as paths and roadways

Using stairs, jumping and rough play can cause damage to growing bones and joints as they cause the limbs to jolt sharply, which can cause tears and chips in the soft cartilage. These tears and chips can cause the bones and joints to break down in parts and not form correctly as they grow. Long walks on lead wear the puppy out, can make them sore (even though they may not show it – remember that Pyrs are quite a stoic breed) and does not allow the pup to rest when it needs to keep going until the end of the walk. The repetitive motion of the walk, particularly when on harder surfaces can also put stress on growing joints and

ligaments, also causing them to break down. Pups may compensate for the sore parts if they need to keep going, which may then affect other muscles, joints and ligaments due to their irregular gait.

So, how do I exercise my pup?

The absolute best form of exercise for a young Pyrenean is free running and play, particularly on an undulating surface (e.g. small hills and slopes). We can do this by playing with our young Pyrenean in our backyard and taking it to play in other safe fenced areas (be wary of some fenced 'dog parks' though as many dogs in those spaces are not often well socialised or controlled and may not provide your pup with a good experience – use your judgement when deciding to enter!).

If you do not have a fenced area to take your pup to, you can provide appropriate exercise by attaching a long lead like a horse lunge line and taking your pup to an area such as a park or sporting field to play. You may need to drive them there if it is not close by. By using a long line such as this, your pup has the freedom to move and play, but can not do a disapyr! Remember to allow your pup plenty of opportunity to rest as well as exercise in a 'free' manner.

Can I take my pup out on lead?

Yes! Not taking your pup on long walks does not mean you never take your pup out on a lead. In fact teaching your pup to be on a lead and taking it out to a wide variety of places is very important. However, you should view these outings not as physical exercise, but as training, socialisation and mental stimulation. Take your young Pyrenean to places like the local shops, pet store, local school, sporting games and out the front of your house as well as to places like your local vet clinic, obedience club and other fun doggy activities (but of course wait a while before you do something like the walk part of the Million Paws Walk!!)

A Number of Environmental Factors Can Affect the Incidence of Hip Dysplasia in Dogs

Article reproduced in full from: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120326112842.htm

ScienceDaily

(Mar. 26, 2012)

—

Hip dysplasia (HD) in dogs is affected to a larger degree than previously believed by the environment in which puppies grow up. It is particularly during the period from birth to three months that various environmental factors appear to influence the development of this disease. During the puppy stage, preventive measures can therefore be recommended with a view to giving dogs disposed to the

condition a better quality of life.

Randi I. Krontveit's doctoral research has studied the incidence of HD in four breeds of dog in Norway and examined factors in the environment where the dogs grew up that can have an affect on the number of cases. HD is a genetic disease which also occurs in several other species. Dogs are not born with HD, but genetically disposed puppies can develop varying degrees of HD. The degree of HD has an affect on when the dogs show symptoms and on how long they live.

Five hundred privately owned dogs participated in the study and the four breeds investigated were the Newfoundland, the Labrador Retriever, the Leonberger and the Irish Wolfhound. The environment in which the dogs were born and grew up was registered by means of questionnaires filled out by the breeder and the new owner, and by examinations carried out by veterinary surgeons.

Findings from previous experiments and studies from other countries have indicated that rapid growth and a high body weight are factors that increase the likelihood of developing HD. Randi I. Krontveit's research has shown that rapid growth and high body weight in the first year of the puppies' life did not result in an increased risk of HD. On the contrary, she found that the breed that had the slowest growth rate -- the Newfoundland -- had the highest incidence of HD (36%). The Irish Wolfhound had the lowest incidence of HD (10%), yet had the fastest rate of growth.

Puppies usually live with their mother at the breeder's for the first eight weeks of their life. Several factors related to the living conditions at the breeder's were shown to have an influence on the incidence of HD. Puppies born in the spring or summer and at breeders who lived on a farm or small holding, had a lower risk of developing HD. After about eight weeks, the puppies began life with their new owner. The opportunity to exercise daily in parks up until the age of three months reduced the risk of HD, whereas the daily use of steps during the same period increased the risk. Overall, it would appear that daily exercise out in gently undulating terrain up until the age of three months gives a good prognosis when it comes to preventing HD.

The dogs in this study were followed up until they reached 10 years of age by means of annual questionnaires filled out by the owner. Dogs seriously affected by HD were put down earlier than dogs with a milder form of the disease. This was particularly the case for Newfoundlands and Leonbergers. HD did not have such a large affect on the longevity of Labrador Retrievers or Irish Wolfhounds. Serious and moderate degrees of HD increased the risk of symptoms such as limping and hip pain and these symptoms occurred earliest in Newfoundlands. The Labrador Retriever was the breed in which symptoms appeared latest in life. Varied exercise had a positive effect and dogs that exercised on a daily basis on a lead and running free in different types of terrain were free of symptoms longer than dogs that were less active.

Based on the findings of this doctoral research, preventive measures related to early canine life can be recommended. If HD in its most serious forms can be prevented, the life quality of dogs will be improved.

Norwegian School of Veterinary Science (2012, March 26). A number of environmental factors can affect the incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs.

ScienceDaily. Retrieved March 31, 2012, from http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120326112842.htm

Edited October 11, 2012 by espinay2

[megan_]

I wouldn't just recommend crate rest for this dog - ortho vet and xrays are a definite. If you have insurance it should all be covered anyway.

[TheCheekyMonster]

OK, this thread is worrying me greatly. This is NOT normal and needs way more than a chiro. It is highly unlikely from the description you have given that this will just 'go away'.

This needs SPECIALIST help IMO. Get an appointment with an orthopedic specialist ASAP. You need a proper diagnosis! (and likely x-rays)

What is his diet? (and what has it been?). A change of diet may be called for and IMO I would actually probably be feeding this dog similar to feeding a giant breed growing dog with issues. That means SLOWING growth, making sure the dog is lean and not creating problems through over nutrition. If feeding dry food your dog should be on a suitable adult food. I would suggest Pro Plan Performance which is also suitable for growing large breed puppies and does not contain too much calcium (too much calcium is a big problem with growing large breed dogs). If feeding a raw diet, you may need to adjust that too - let me know if you need help with that

If you can monitor his urine adequately, then Vit C may be worth adding - use either esther C or sodium ascorbate as these are the only two types shown to be effective. 900 to 1000mg a day if he can take it.

HAve a read of info relating to large/giant breed growth issues. While a Dally is not normally considered in this category, it really does sound like your dog is displaying all the issues that in my own breed would have me VERY concerned.

There are also some red flags in your post - 'forced' exercise and stair climbing for example - that in a larger breed would be an indicator of trouble and it may well also be for your dog too.

Below is info cut and pasted from my puppy packs on exercise which IMO could be relevant in your case. Also an article regarding exercise.

As mentioned, this needs a SPECIALIST opinion. I would not be stuffing around. This really needed to be dealt with earlier than this, but you may be able to do something if you do it now. Leave it longer and a good chance you will not as the earlier you correct it the better you can fix it.

Exercise and your Puppy

A very important part of bringing your new Pyrenean puppy up correctly will be to ensure it has the right amount and type of exercise. It is important to remember that the wrong type of exercise can damage growing bones and joints. Growing puppy bones are soft at the 'growth plates'. Bones grow by forming new soft cartilage which later forms into harder bone. Damage to these soft parts of the bone may result in bones not growing correctly and can lead or contribute to issues such as Hip and Elbow Dysplasia, Osteochondritis Dessicans (OCD) and later development of arthritis.

What NOT to Do

The most damaging forms of exercise for a young Pyrenean are the following:

Regular use of stairs, in particular running up and down

Jumping from a height such as out of a vehicle, off a retaining wall or off a bed or furniture.

Rough play, such as body slamming, blocking or being rolled, particularly with a larger dog.

Long walks on lead, particularly on hard surfaces such as paths and roadways

Using stairs, jumping and rough play can cause damage to growing bones and joints as they cause the limbs to jolt sharply, which can cause tears and chips in the soft cartilage. These tears and chips can cause the bones and joints to break down in parts and not form correctly as they grow. Long walks on lead wear the puppy out, can make them sore (even though they may not show it – remember that Pyrs are quite a stoic breed) and does not allow the pup to rest when it needs to keep going until the end of the walk. The repetitive motion of the walk, particularly when on harder surfaces can also put stress on growing joints and

ligaments, also causing them to break down. Pups may compensate for the sore parts if they need to keep going, which may then affect other muscles, joints and ligaments due to their irregular gait.

So, how do I exercise my pup?

The absolute best form of exercise for a young Pyrenean is free running and play, particularly on an undulating surface (e.g. small hills and slopes). We can do this by playing with our young Pyrenean in our backyard and taking it to play in other safe fenced areas (be wary of some fenced 'dog parks' though as many dogs in those spaces are not often well socialised or controlled and may not provide your pup with a good experience – use your judgement when deciding to enter!).

If you do not have a fenced area to take your pup to, you can provide appropriate exercise by attaching a long lead like a horse lunge line and taking your pup to an area such as a park or sporting field to play. You may need to drive them there if it is not close by. By using a long line such as this, your pup has the freedom to move and play, but can not do a disapyr! Remember to allow your pup plenty of opportunity to rest as well as exercise in a 'free' manner.

Can I take my pup out on lead?

Yes! Not taking your pup on long walks does not mean you never take your pup out on a lead. In fact teaching your pup to be on a lead and taking it out to a wide variety of places is very important. However, you should view these outings not as physical exercise, but as training, socialisation and mental stimulation. Take your young Pyrenean to places like the local shops, pet store, local school, sporting games and out the front of your house as well as to places like your local vet clinic, obedience club and other fun doggy activities (but of course wait a while before you do something like the walk part of the Million Paws Walk!!)

A Number of Environmental Factors Can Affect the Incidence of Hip Dysplasia in Dogs

Article reproduced in full from: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120326112842.htm

ScienceDaily

(Mar. 26, 2012)

—

Hip dysplasia (HD) in dogs is affected to a larger degree than previously believed by the environment in which puppies grow up. It is particularly during the period from birth to three months that various environmental factors appear to influence the development of this disease. During the puppy stage, preventive measures can therefore be recommended with a view to giving dogs disposed to the

condition a better quality of life.

Randi I. Krontveit's doctoral research has studied the incidence of HD in four breeds of dog in Norway and examined factors in the environment where the dogs grew up that can have an affect on the number of cases. HD is a genetic disease which also occurs in several other species. Dogs are not born with HD, but genetically disposed puppies can develop varying degrees of HD. The degree of HD has an affect on when the dogs show symptoms and on how long they live.

Five hundred privately owned dogs participated in the study and the four breeds investigated were the Newfoundland, the Labrador Retriever, the Leonberger and the Irish Wolfhound. The environment in which the dogs were born and grew up was registered by means of questionnaires filled out by the breeder and the new owner, and by examinations carried out by veterinary surgeons.

Findings from previous experiments and studies from other countries have indicated that rapid growth and a high body weight are factors that increase the likelihood of developing HD. Randi I. Krontveit's research has shown that rapid growth and high body weight in the first year of the puppies' life did not result in an increased risk of HD. On the contrary, she found that the breed that had the slowest growth rate -- the Newfoundland -- had the highest incidence of HD (36%). The Irish Wolfhound had the lowest incidence of HD (10%), yet had the fastest rate of growth.

Puppies usually live with their mother at the breeder's for the first eight weeks of their life. Several factors related to the living conditions at the breeder's were shown to have an influence on the incidence of HD. Puppies born in the spring or summer and at breeders who lived on a farm or small holding, had a lower risk of developing HD. After about eight weeks, the puppies began life with their new owner. The opportunity to exercise daily in parks up until the age of three months reduced the risk of HD, whereas the daily use of steps during the same period increased the risk. Overall, it would appear that daily exercise out in gently undulating terrain up until the age of three months gives a good prognosis when it comes to preventing HD.

The dogs in this study were followed up until they reached 10 years of age by means of annual questionnaires filled out by the owner. Dogs seriously affected by HD were put down earlier than dogs with a milder form of the disease. This was particularly the case for Newfoundlands and Leonbergers. HD did not have such a large affect on the longevity of Labrador Retrievers or Irish Wolfhounds. Serious and moderate degrees of HD increased the risk of symptoms such as limping and hip pain and these symptoms occurred earliest in Newfoundlands. The Labrador Retriever was the breed in which symptoms appeared latest in life. Varied exercise had a positive effect and dogs that exercised on a daily basis on a lead and running free in different types of terrain were free of symptoms longer than dogs that were less active.

Based on the findings of this doctoral research, preventive measures related to early canine life can be recommended. If HD in its most serious forms can be prevented, the life quality of dogs will be improved.

Norwegian School of Veterinary Science (2012, March 26). A number of environmental factors can affect the incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs.

ScienceDaily. Retrieved March 31, 2012, from http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120326112842.htm

His been on Slow growing diet since i got him, his breeder had him on Proplan sensitive large breed but i did change it 6 months ago to artemis (because his skin was doing funny things and we havent had a major skin problem since), so he gets 1.5 cups artemis with 1tbs flaxseed oil and plain yoghurt if his lucky of the morning and 1 frame or chicken wings for dinner some nights he might get some veg with it if we have left over steamed brocli and or sweet spud or something (but not often).

Can you recommend a specialist??

[The Spotted Devil]

What's his weight like now? I recall you saying he was a bit on the heavy side.

[espinay2]

What is the calcium % in the Artemis? Can't find it listed for them and it always concerns me when you don't have a full analysis.

Where are you located for the specialist? I can't recommend one in particular, but perhaps others can.

Also when did you first notice he might have a problem? Was it before or after you switched to the Artemis?

Edited October 12, 2012 by espinay2

[TheCheekyMonster]

I didn't notice it was a problem up until about 3 months ago.... i thought it was gangly puppy with a mixture of his balls had dropped, but on closer inspection and time watching it, it looked like his leg hyper extend and kicked out a little when he walked....but then i got someone to have a look at him walk and they confirmed my suspicion that it was not normal so i went to the ciro.... Since then iv been trying to watch it and teach him not to run because every time now without fail he will slide but i have little success when he is outdoors. I am in gladesville but Im willing to travel around Sydney

[espinay2]

IMO I would ditch the Artemis if you can't get a full analysis panel for it to check it.

Pro Plan Performance, Eagle Pack Large and Giant Breed Puppy and Innova Large Breed Puppy are the only three I have found so far to have a sufficiently low calcium level with sufficiently high protein without through the roof calories to suit large breed growth issues.

I gather David Lidbetter at Parramatta Veterinary Surgical Specialists comes highly recommended.

Make an appointment ASAP. This is NOT normal gangly puppy stuff at all.

Edited October 12, 2012 by espinay2

[megan_]

Do you have some pics of gus standing naturally/ For some reason I thought you show him - has a judge/another exhibitor said anything or hasn't he been shown since this came up?

[TheCheekyMonster]

Do you have some pics of gus standing naturally/ For some reason I thought you show him - has a judge/another exhibitor said anything or hasn't he been shown since this came up?

I do show him, this has not come up, but I havent shown him since it got noticeable, I will be showing him at the end of the month... and espinay2 i did feed him innova for a month inbetween the proplan and artemis but his skin flaired up more so i stopped it.

Nala got her first knee done by David I hear he is the best of the best ill give them a call, I dont have pet insurance biggest mistake... I will see if I can take some photos of him standing and ill post them up.

[espinay2]

video may be better?

[TheCheekyMonster]

video may be better?

I actually thought that once I clicked "add reply" and when he is in the "down" position i noticed this 2 days ago his leg does not tuck in nicely anymore... it sticks out el bizzar!!

[TheCheekyMonster]

Well I took Gus to a Vet that we are very happy with down in Austral, they x-rayed him and said his hips were so good they could score them, spine excellent he said Gus is very structurally sound and that I should be very proud of his breeding (thank dog!!) BUT the end vertebrae may have something going on but it was not pronounced enough to make a call on it and both vets had a gander and said nothing to look into further for now..... steps to take for the next 4 weeks.

1. Block off steps as well as possible

2. Crating during the day

3. 500mg vit C

If there is no improvement we are to go back to have another look at the vertebrae and may start antibiotics if it's an infection.... but I am so so soooooo happy it has nothing to do with his hips, knees, or spine and that Gus is the best temperament Dalmatian to come through their doors :D ( haha they did x-ray him with no anethtetic and lots of handling was going on... Gus wasnt being very compliant, he thought it was play time, he always thinks its play time)

Edited October 17, 2012 by TheCheekyMonster

[megan_]

Great news - do you have a photo of Gus in a stack? Is is back straight?

edit: oops, you've already said you'll get these, sorry! The reason I ask is that you can have great hip scores, sound spine but the dog might not be structurally sound. My boy has been seen by one of the best vets for this stuff in Vic and he got the okay - good hips and spine. After reading Pat Hastings book I can see that his rear end angulation is greater than desirable. I can also feel his spine in spots when he curls up. Individually his components are good, but they aren't put together in a balanced way.

Edited October 17, 2012 by megan_

[OSoSwift]

Great the xrays have come back clear,hope the verterbrae is nothing.

Having said that I would now take him to see a Bowen therapist or similar. My boy had some gait issues and just could not hold a stack even if he wanted to - he tried but you could see it was uncomfortable. He also would aframe and drop his wither. After some Bowen he stands completely differently and is up and over his front legs. I do have to get it done from time to time to maintain it.

He may have some soft tissue things going on that xrays cannot pick up and I have to say unless your vet is a chiro or bowen therapist as well they will not look for or find it.