Breeding Every Heat.

[mixeduppup]

That's right, I want to do best by my dog without breaking the law at the same time. Who polices dog's heats though? How would they know if you bred back to back?

[angelsun]

It's important at this point to clarify that it's not against the law to breed a bitch on her first season, but it IS against the registeration councils RULES that apply to members....

I'm a believer of back to back matings, and young if possible. I've tried other ways and not been as successful. The bitches are then spayed and retired and live long happy lives. The new Vic rules which say my breed can not be MATED until 18 months are insane.....(in my opinion) but it seems that my voice as a registered breeder and one of two in my state for my breed, goes unheard.

I do continue to snort at the 'rules' which many are based on old style beliefs passed down for generations and upheld by canine councils.....new technology is NOT embraced (ask anyone who's brought in semen and/or registered it for use and the paperwork involved) as well as one of the most influencial repro specialists in the WORLD, who's recommendations seem to be ignored by those in power of the canine councils that CLAIM to be protectors of purebreds.

[ruthjones]

hmmm, would be interesting to compare the exact wordings of the rules in the different states, Tas states

I shall not breed from any bitch kept by me causing it to whelp before it is 12 months of age and I shall not breed any bitch kept by me causing it to whelp more than twice in any 18 month period. I will not breed any bitch kept by me causing it to whelp more than 6 times without prior written approval from the TCA Inc Council. (http://www.tasdogs.com/ethics.htm)

firstly want to make it clear I am not suggesting what I believe is right, or recommending it, or stating my practices at all, but

according to this, if a bitch had her first season at 10 months old, you could breed her then,

my girl has 9 month cycles (I suspect subject to change with a couple more girls on the premises now) but theoretically, I could breed her every season and still not be doing anything wrong, seems excessively lenient almost?

Interesting points - does not specify a minimum age for the sire at all! does not even mention breeding to relatives at all? doesnt mention any testing etc...

again, not my practices in discussion, just pointing out the marked differences between the states, if anyone else has the extracts from the other states for comparison, it would be good.

Ruth

[Steve]

http://search.sweetim.com/search.asp?src=6&crg=3.1010000&st=18&q=nsw+dpi+breeding+dogs+code&barid={311F705B-A056-4EDF-A226-0732FF48AD38}

IN NSW it is against the law to mate a dog intentionally on her first heat and against the law to mate a dog more than twice in any two year period.

Ive never mated a dog before she was 12 months old but that's because my breeds do not come in season until they are over 12 months old so I've never been in a position to even consider it but for ever until the law changes were bought in we mated them on their first heat and never had a problem with it.

[angelsun]

IN NSW it is against the law to mate a dog intentionally on her first heat and against the law to mate a dog more than twice in any two year period.

Clarifying, it is not against the LAW..it is against the rules of the registery in that state, (Dogs NSW). Many back yard breeders mate on the first season and every subsequent one...they provide what RSPCA requires for housing, food/water etc, and never have an issue. They are not charged with abuse, nor are they put out of business, in fact, they thrive much to the exploitation of their animals being used.

ANYONE can take a bitch, breed it on the first heat cycle and sell the pups without risk of being charged by a LAW...in VIC, just add a microchip, and all is well with the world. It is ONLY the registries that make these RULES, and they only apply to purebred dogs, in that, by breaking them, the dogs will be ineligible for registrations. Unless of course you're in Vic and have a litter of unknown parentage, and then you'll still get papers on them..but that is another story!

[Christina]

hmmm, would be interesting to compare the exact wordings of the rules in the different states, Tas states

I shall not breed from any bitch kept by me causing it to whelp before it is 12 months of age and I shall not breed any bitch kept by me causing it to whelp more than twice in any 18 month period. I will not breed any bitch kept by me causing it to whelp more than 6 times without prior written approval from the TCA Inc Council. (http://www.tasdogs.com/ethics.htm)

Interesting points - does not specify a minimum age for the sire at all! does not even mention breeding to relatives at all? doesnt mention any testing etc...

again, not my practices in discussion, just pointing out the marked differences between the states, if anyone else has the extracts from the other states for comparison, it would be good.

Ruth

Can't find the code right now but basically In SA it says you must not MATE a bitch before 12 months, so slightly different.

[espinay2]

IN NSW it is against the law to mate a dog intentionally on her first heat and against the law to mate a dog more than twice in any two year period.

Clarifying, it is not against the LAW..it is against the rules of the registery in that state, (Dogs NSW). Many back yard breeders mate on the first season and every subsequent one...they provide what RSPCA requires for housing, food/water etc, and never have an issue. They are not charged with abuse, nor are they put out of business, in fact, they thrive much to the exploitation of their animals being used.

ANYONE can take a bitch, breed it on the first heat cycle and sell the pups without risk of being charged by a LAW...in VIC, just add a microchip, and all is well with the world. It is ONLY the registries that make these RULES, and they only apply to purebred dogs, in that, by breaking them, the dogs will be ineligible for registrations. Unless of course you're in Vic and have a litter of unknown parentage, and then you'll still get papers on them..but that is another story!

Actually in NSW it is against the LAW as these things are standards written into the NSW State Government's Code of Practice for Breeding Dogs and Cats (see section 10.1.1.) and non compliance is subject to prosecution under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979, and/or the Prevention of Cruelty to Animal (General) Regulation 2006.

Edited October 27, 2012 by espinay2

[Saffioraire]

Does anyone else have any more literature resources handy about this?

My questions would be;

- what is the effect on the uterus of a dog who is bred with each cycle, as opposed to the one that isn't?

- is the decrease in risk of a consistently bred bitch proportional to the increase in risk of other cancers as a result of breeding? Is there an increase or decreased risk of other cancers (ie. breast cancer) with regards to breeding?

- what is the overall strain on a bitches body from a litter (conception to weaning), and how does this compare in regards to physical strain (use of vital nutrients, any affect on bone density and the resulting issues from that, etc, etc) on a consecutively bred bitch, and one who is not?

- Is there a line which can be drawn regarding amount of litters before there is usually a transition from positive effects to negative?

Don't get me wrong, I do agree and see the value of breeding a bitch consecutively and then speying younger, however I'm just wondering if there is any literature comparing the bitch who is regularly left to cycle and kept empty, and the bitch who is regularly bred and speyed after 'x' amount of litters - and comparisons of rates of different cancers, other infections or issues, life expectancy, degenerative issues, and so on?

[Steve]

1.J.P. Verstegen III and K. Onclin. Prolactin and Anti-Prolactinic Agents in thePathophysiology and Treatment of Mammary Tumors in the Dog. NAVC Proceedings2006, North American Veterinary Conference (Eds).

2.Canine Pseudopregnancy: A Review (Last Updated: 23-Aug-2001)

C.Gobello1, P. W. Concannon2 and J. Verstegen III3, Recent Advances in SmallAnimal Reproduction, Concannon P.W., England G., Verstegen III J. and Linde-ForsbergC. (Eds.)

3.Donnay I, Rauis J & Verstegen J – Influence des antécédents hormonaux surl'apparition clinique des tumeurs mammaires chez la chienne. Etudeépidémiologique. Ann. Med. Vet. 1994, 138, 109-117

4.Simón Martí Angulo Clinical aspects of uterine disease in the bitch and queen.Proceeding of the Southern European Veterinary Conference Oct. 2-4, 2009.

5.S.Romagnoli, How I Treat… Pyometra. Proceeding of the SEVC Southern EuropeanVeterinary Conference Oct. 17-19, 2008 – Barcelona, Spain

6.Davidson AP, Feldman EC. Ovarian and estrous cycle abnormalities. In:

7.EttingerSW, Feldman EC (eds) Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine. WBSaunders, 2004

8.Johnson CA. Cystic endometrial hyperplasia, pyometra, and infertility. In: EttingerSW, Feldman EC (eds). Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine WBSaunders, 1992, pp. 954

9. Helio Autran de Morais, DVM, PhD, ACVIM, RESPIRATORYDISEASES IN OLD DOGS

Proceedings of the 34th World Small Animal Veterinary Congress

WSAVA 2009 São Paulo, Brazil – 2009

10. S. Romagnoli, Infertility in the Bitch, Proceeding of theSEVC, Oct. 17-19, 2008 – Barcelona, Spain Southern European VeterinaryConference

Edited October 27, 2012 by Steve

[angelsun]

IN NSW it is against the law to mate a dog intentionally on her first heat and against the law to mate a dog more than twice in any two year period.

Clarifying, it is not against the LAW..it is against the rules of the registery in that state, (Dogs NSW). Many back yard breeders mate on the first season and every subsequent one...they provide what RSPCA requires for housing, food/water etc, and never have an issue. They are not charged with abuse, nor are they put out of business, in fact, they thrive much to the exploitation of their animals being used.

ANYONE can take a bitch, breed it on the first heat cycle and sell the pups without risk of being charged by a LAW...in VIC, just add a microchip, and all is well with the world. It is ONLY the registries that make these RULES, and they only apply to purebred dogs, in that, by breaking them, the dogs will be ineligible for registrations. Unless of course you're in Vic and have a litter of unknown parentage, and then you'll still get papers on them..but that is another story!

Actually in NSW it is against the LAW as these things are standards written into the NSW State Government's Code of Practice for Breeding Dogs and Cats (see section 10.1.1.) and non compliance is subject to prosecution under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979, and/or the Prevention of Cruelty to Animal (General) Regulation 2006.

Has there been prosecutions then?

[Steve]

Dogs are not humans and their reproductive systems and needs are different to other species. Before we as breeders or anyone responsible for regulations or laws in regard to breeding dogs makes any decision we need to take the science of the species into account. We have allowed animal rights groups and people with little or no experience in breeding dogs to determine how these animals should be managed but worse to sway our assumptions and education.You hear it said often enough and see it in laws and regulations and assume its the best thing for the dogs without considering the need of doing our own research or taking into account experience and knowledge of people who have had the opportunity to breed dogs without these regulations on their back. Bitches secrete the same hormones with the exception of relaxin which wack into their uterus whether they are pregnant or not - their bodies think they are pregnant even when they are not - there is no science to back up the idea that it is better for a bitch not to be mated until a certain age or to limit how often she is mated. This is all about restricting the numbers bred not about what is best for the bitch and when we put regulations on about how often,how many litters etc it means we cant allow a bitch who is thriving on motherhood and making beautiful healthy babies to be utilised as well as she may be - what she brings to the gene pool as far as fertility, good health , good immunity , mothering and her ability to reproduce,with hips and joints strong enough and well enough to hold the weight of the stud dog as they mate etc is limited when it doesn't need to be based on the science of canine husbandry. The very qualities a good brood bitch used to ensure survival of her species or her breed is now restricted and more and more we need human interference to do what used to be natural. Ordinarily Id advise breeders to get educated, know the facts and the for and against and make the decisions based on what you believe is best for your dogs but in some states you cant make these decisions because they have been taken out of your hands.

From some of the references - Donnay and his associates showed that there is a relationship between thenumber of pseudopregnancies a bitch goes through and the development of mammarycancer

Verstegen and Onclin (2006) have also studiedcanine mammary cancer and found thata large number of bitches presented for mammary tumours also showpseudopregnancy, that a large percentage of these females had had frequent pseudopregnancies and that the bitches with recurring pseudopregnancy at eachcycle tended to develop mammary tumours significantly earlier than otheranimals. Bitches which are not bred each season are likely to become pseudopregnant andpseudopregnancy increases the risk of cancer.

Pregnancyprotects against life threatening uterine diseases. The most common uterinedisease in the bitch is cystic endometrial hyperplasia. It is linked to severalserious uterine diseases including the potentially life threatening disease“pyometra” (literally – a uterus full of pus) which affects nearly one quarterof dogs under 10 years old which are not desexed

According to canine reproduction specialist DrS. Romagnoli “bitches whelping regularly throughout their reproductive lifealmost never develop pyometra, while those who whelp rarely or never in their liveshave a greater chance of developing this condition”

Textbookof Veterinary Internal Medicine WB Saunders, notesthat uterine diseases are less common in kennels where bitches are bred andconceive regularly indicating that pregnancy has a protective effect on the liningof the uterus or “endometrium”

[Steve]

IN NSW it is against the law to mate a dog intentionally on her first heat and against the law to mate a dog more than twice in any two year period.

Clarifying, it is not against the LAW..it is against the rules of the registery in that state, (Dogs NSW). Many back yard breeders mate on the first season and every subsequent one...they provide what RSPCA requires for housing, food/water etc, and never have an issue. They are not charged with abuse, nor are they put out of business, in fact, they thrive much to the exploitation of their animals being used.

ANYONE can take a bitch, breed it on the first heat cycle and sell the pups without risk of being charged by a LAW...in VIC, just add a microchip, and all is well with the world. It is ONLY the registries that make these RULES, and they only apply to purebred dogs, in that, by breaking them, the dogs will be ineligible for registrations. Unless of course you're in Vic and have a litter of unknown parentage, and then you'll still get papers on them..but that is another story!

It is against the law in NSW and they apply to all breeders and not just registered breeders.

[Steve]

That's right, I want to do best by my dog without breaking the law at the same time. Who polices dog's heats though? How would they know if you bred back to back?

Lets talk about this for a minute. Per NSW . Every dog regardless of where it lives or how its used is required to be microchipped . Working dogs are not required to be registered but they are still required to be chipped. In other words every bitch I own is on the chip details with my council even though I dont pay to register my working dogs. They know how many I own, what sexes they are and their ages. If I have 2 bitches noted on the chip registry and I have more litters than I should with them I am either breaking the law with back to back breedings or I have some dogs which are not chipped - either way Im breaking the law. Of course those who dont have working dogs or who have pet working dogs which Council knows how often I have a litter because I have to chip every puppy I have which goes through them before it is sold. Because Im an ANKC breeder all of my bitches are registered with them and their code says I have to register every pup I produce, so they can see how often any bitch is being bred ,what age she is etc.

It is also the law in NSW to keep accurate records on all dogs so at any time you can be asked to produce these records to show what dogs you have and how often they are bred etc.

[Sandra777]

That's right, I want to do best by my dog without breaking the law at the same time. Who polices dog's heats though? How would they know if you bred back to back?

Good point - if you have, as I have, a bitch who cycles every 3-4 months you could breed her every second heat and probably get in trouble for breeding every heat. If you have, as I have also had, a bitch who cycles every 9-10 months you could breed her every heat and this would probably not even be noticed.

ETA: as for keeping accurate records, I'm pretty sure that can be enforced :)

Edited October 28, 2012 by Sandra777

[espinay2]

IN NSW it is against the law to mate a dog intentionally on her first heat and against the law to mate a dog more than twice in any two year period.

Clarifying, it is not against the LAW..it is against the rules of the registery in that state, (Dogs NSW). Many back yard breeders mate on the first season and every subsequent one...they provide what RSPCA requires for housing, food/water etc, and never have an issue. They are not charged with abuse, nor are they put out of business, in fact, they thrive much to the exploitation of their animals being used.

ANYONE can take a bitch, breed it on the first heat cycle and sell the pups without risk of being charged by a LAW...in VIC, just add a microchip, and all is well with the world. It is ONLY the registries that make these RULES, and they only apply to purebred dogs, in that, by breaking them, the dogs will be ineligible for registrations. Unless of course you're in Vic and have a litter of unknown parentage, and then you'll still get papers on them..but that is another story!

Actually in NSW it is against the LAW as these things are standards written into the NSW State Government's Code of Practice for Breeding Dogs and Cats (see section 10.1.1.) and non compliance is subject to prosecution under the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979, and/or the Prevention of Cruelty to Animal (General) Regulation 2006.

Has there been prosecutions then?

I don't know. But as it is in the Code, I would not take the fact that there have not been prosecutions for that part of it as proof or precedent that there will not be at some point. Unfortunately, no matter what we think and what the scientific evidence is to the contrary, the law is there and CAN be policed should they wish to do so.

[Steve]

That's right, I want to do best by my dog without breaking the law at the same time. Who polices dog's heats though? How would they know if you bred back to back?

Good point - if you have, as I have, a bitch who cycles every 3-4 months you could breed her every second heat and probably get in trouble for breeding every heat. If you have, as I have also had, a bitch who cycles every 9-10 months you could breed her every heat and this would probably not even be noticed.

ETA: as for keeping accurate records, I'm pretty sure that can be enforced :)

They don't talk about every heat in the CC regs or state laws or regs - its X amount of litters in a certain time period. That covers everyone regardless of how often your bitch is on heat you can only breed as often as you are able to.

As far as prosecution - from a breeders perspective obviously its a bit of a joke because dogs sometimes do what they shouldn't do, they jump fences and sneak around and do things when you are least expecting it so its difficult to see but the fact is its a law and if someone wanted to push it then you are guilty maybe with mitigating circumstances but its still guilty. I've no doubt if you allowed your dog to throw a leg over out of the time frame more than once your defence would be weaker as well. if we get to a point and it appears we are almost there where breeders need a licence then this would be one of the things which would see your licence removed.