mixeduppup Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I know a guy who breeds working dogs and breeds them every heat, they rarely get a heat off. I think the dog needs at least a year off after pups or even 18 months for her to fully recover and also to work which is what she's been bred to do. Surely it's highly unethical to do such a thing? He is adamant that it doesn't hurt the bitch but surely it does. What are you views on breeding a bitch every heat? I personally would never do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) I think it depends on the Bitch. Some bitches bounce back exceptionally well, others do need a season off. My first bitch was skin and bone after her litter so there was no way I would remate, but others are glowing by the time they come on season again. Better to get the pups on the ground and the bitch desexed IMO. The problem being you dont see how what you produce turns out but if your looking at working dogs then you should know regarding temperament when they are 4mths of age when she would cycle again. You risk pyo or other complications leaving a bitch cycling. ETA- I wouldnt have more than a couple of litters from a single bitch but you refer to multiple so yes I would do back to back but the intent would be to be able to desex my bitch young, not so I could pump out more puppies. Edited October 8, 2012 by Jumabaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 OK thank for that, my mentor said that a bitch should have at least one heat off before breeding her again, not just for health but so she can go back to work. This is why I'm asking as it'll be about a year before I breed my bitch and I want to get this right and make sure I have the right mentor and if not find a new one. I want to do this right. A lot of people just breed their working dogs but I really want to know the ins and outs entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 OK thank for that, my mentor said that a bitch should have at least one heat off before breeding her again, not just for health but so she can go back to work. This is why I'm asking as it'll be about a year before I breed my bitch and I want to get this right and make sure I have the right mentor and if not find a new one. I want to do this right. A lot of people just breed their working dogs but I really want to know the ins and outs entirely. I had many many many mentors- they had different strengths/weaknesses and gave me lots of info. I then took that info as a starting place for my own research (I used google scholar heaps rather than blogs and websites) and formed my own opinions that my mentors then challenged and made me re-examine. I love the advice/opinion from people who are more experience than me but I always critically analyse it which is what you will have to do when more people come into the thread and give their opinion. I think thats what makes a good breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 OK definitely will do and I think I'll call a few others who breed wkc and chat to them as well. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 All canine reproductive specialists will tell you its better for the bitch to breed her every season and in fact detrimental to their health not to those of us who have been around long enough know this as well but that is irrelavant in NSW and Victoria it is illegal to breed your bitch every season whether you are a working dog breeder or not - best you tell your friend this so he doesnt tell anyone else what he is doing or he will be gone gone gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I was just going to say that Steve. Many people aren't aware that each and every season your bitch has, her body and the hormones it creates are telling her she is pregnant, the only difference is that if she isn't mated, the "pregnancy" (ie the season) comes to an end more quickly. And each and every season she has slams her body harder and harder whether she is mated or not and cause more and more damage. This is why many repro experts now advocate back-to-back-to-back breedings and then immediate speying. It is the canine controlling bodies who are going against the medical information. And of course, human "ethics" (or not) which condemn people who are in fact potentially doing the right thing by their bitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 (edited) I was just going to say that Steve. Many people aren't aware that each and every season your bitch has, her body and the hormones it creates are telling her she is pregnant, the only difference is that if she isn't mated, the "pregnancy" (ie the season) comes to an end more quickly. And each and every season she has slams her body harder and harder whether she is mated or not and cause more and more damage. This is why many repro experts now advocate back-to-back-to-back breedings and then immediate speying. It is the canine controlling bodies who are going against the medical information. And of course, human "ethics" (or not) which condemn people who are in fact potentially doing the right thing by their bitches. Yes, that is exactly my vets opinion. So I expect you know what he thinks of the intelligence of the Canine Controlling bodies. But then they are not making the rules for the benefit of the dogs, they are pandering to those they fear will cause them trouble if they dont please the animal libbers and those who consider their dogs to be fur babies. Seems and awful lot of the eticals dont talk much to the repro experts as they seem to always be prattling the dont breed em young n never more than once a year minimum. Yet even gynacologists are agast at how more dangerous it is for both mother and child the older a human mum is before she has her first child, same for the canines too, but hey, to not toe the popularist line is to be automatically "unethical" n thats darned dangerous isnt it fed properly most bitches are fat by the time they are next in heat, but the few that arent then obviously are asking for a break but we surely dont need blanket rules for all like we have now? Edited October 8, 2012 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pockets Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I dont see any issues with back to back breedings, although breeding every season is a bit excessive in my opinion and goes against the rules anyway. It again depends on how close their season are too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 This guys isn't my friend he's just a breeder and musterer up the road, these bitches usually breed until they are six or seven and then they get pts because they're past their working use by date or just used for work until they can't work anymore... I feel like he's a working dog puppy farm of sorts. He does have some nice dogs but he's not reg with any canine body, he does breed good working dogs but most are incredibly undersized for kelpies. There's no point in talking to him or reporting him because it's a farming area and a lot of people do it this way, unless you're a reg stud you don't desex your bitches after they finish breeding as they aren't as fast for work and they put on weight. But if you watch what you feed and keep the work up to them I can't see why desexing can't be done. It's all a old school vs new school game, at the dog's expense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I was just going to say that Steve. Many people aren't aware that each and every season your bitch has, her body and the hormones it creates are telling her she is pregnant, the only difference is that if she isn't mated, the "pregnancy" (ie the season) comes to an end more quickly. And each and every season she has slams her body harder and harder whether she is mated or not and cause more and more damage. This is why many repro experts now advocate back-to-back-to-back breedings and then immediate speying. It is the canine controlling bodies who are going against the medical information. And of course, human "ethics" (or not) which condemn people who are in fact potentially doing the right thing by their bitches. Yes, that is exactly my vets opinion. So I expect you know what he thinks of the intelligence of the Canine Controlling bodies. But then they are not making the rules for the benefit of the dogs, they are pandering to those they fear will cause them trouble if they dont please the animal libbers and those who consider their dogs to be fur babies. Seems and awful lot of the eticals dont talk much to the repro experts as they seem to always be prattling the dont breed em young n never more than once a year minimum. Yet even gynacologists are agast at how more dangerous it is for both mother and child the older a human mum is before she has her first child, same for the canines too, but hey, to not toe the popularist line is to be automatically "unethical" n thats darned dangerous isnt it fed properly most bitches are fat by the time they are next in heat, but the few that arent then obviously are asking for a break but we surely dont need blanket rules for all like we have now? :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) I was just going to say that Steve. Many people aren't aware that each and every season your bitch has, her body and the hormones it creates are telling her she is pregnant, the only difference is that if she isn't mated, the "pregnancy" (ie the season) comes to an end more quickly. And each and every season she has slams her body harder and harder whether she is mated or not and cause more and more damage. This is why many repro experts now advocate back-to-back-to-back breedings and then immediate speying. It is the canine controlling bodies who are going against the medical information. And of course, human "ethics" (or not) which condemn people who are in fact potentially doing the right thing by their bitches. Yes, that is exactly my vets opinion. So I expect you know what he thinks of the intelligence of the Canine Controlling bodies. But then they are not making the rules for the benefit of the dogs, they are pandering to those they fear will cause them trouble if they dont please the animal libbers and those who consider their dogs to be fur babies. Seems and awful lot of the eticals dont talk much to the repro experts as they seem to always be prattling the dont breed em young n never more than once a year minimum. Yet even gynacologists are agast at how more dangerous it is for both mother and child the older a human mum is before she has her first child, same for the canines too, but hey, to not toe the popularist line is to be automatically "unethical" n thats darned dangerous isnt it fed properly most bitches are fat by the time they are next in heat, but the few that arent then obviously are asking for a break but we surely dont need blanket rules for all like we have now? This. Most well known canine reproduction specialists recommend back to back breedings. Well known US repro guru Dr Hutchinson certainly does. Some info in these links: This is a basic summary of the issue: http://www.everythin...ew_page_195.htm A Q&A with Dr Hutch which includes some discussion on the issue: http://www.veterinar....plx?P=A&A=1224 Some points to note - the uterine lining degrades whether a bitch is bred or not and can actually degrade more if she is not bred. I remember a bitch I had speyed at 7 (she was never bred) whose uterus was a horrible spongy thing when removed (endometrial hyperplasia as Dr Hutch mentions). Very glad I didn't wait any longer! The older a bitch gets and the less often she is bred the more at risk she is of pyometra. This in particular is some info very worth reading: http://www.vetnext.c...057642019%20318 Note the following: "Repeated exposure of the endometrium to high concentrations of estrogen followed by high concentrations of progesterone in the absence of pregnancy leads to cystic endometrial hyperplasia". Edited to add, this is what it looks like: http://research.vet.upenn.edu/SystemicPathology/Exam4/CommonSmallAnimalLesions/tabid/3649/galleryType/SlideShow/ItemID/591/AlbumID/56/Default.aspx Edited October 9, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I dont see any issues with back to back breedings, although breeding every season is a bit excessive in my opinion and goes against the rules anyway. It again depends on how close their season are too. But why = why do you think it is excessive ? It simply doesn't fit with the science. With every other species we trot off to the zoo, watch documentaries and go "WOW' and walk away in awe about the different and unique reproductive systems . Yet when it comes to dogs we let animal rights - people who have probably never bred a dog and never will dictate what we should accept as the science of breeding - in the mean time putting our bitches at risk . Its gotten to a point where if you dare say that bitches should be bred each season you are bagged and slagged . What the hell is the point of us pushing for people who want to breed dogs to go after greater knowledge - give them the facts and the science and then tell them they cant do that because its against the law. Its the same with laws which tell us we have to vaccinate every year etc etc and no law should ever be introduced which is not conducive to sound science - the fact the CCs went that way first is disgraceful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I dont see any issues with back to back breedings, although breeding every season is a bit excessive in my opinion and goes against the rules anyway. It again depends on how close their season are too. But why = why do you think it is excessive ? It simply doesn't fit with the science. With every other species we trot off to the zoo, watch documentaries and go "WOW' and walk away in awe about the different and unique reproductive systems . Yet when it comes to dogs we let animal rights - people who have probably never bred a dog and never will dictate what we should accept as the science of breeding - in the mean time putting our bitches at risk . Its gotten to a point where if you dare say that bitches should be bred each season you are bagged and slagged .What the hell is the point of us pushing for people who want to breed dogs to go after greater knowledge - give them the facts and the science and then tell them they cant do that because its against the law. Its the same with laws which tell us we have to vaccinate every year etc etc and no law should ever be introduced which is not conducive to sound science - the fact the CCs went that way first is disgraceful. You're instantly unethical, should you speak your mind about breeding them young too. Providing your bitch is in good physical condition, then there's nothing wrong with breeding them young and breeding them often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 "Funny" how all the old-time breeders said breed them on their second and third heats, miss a heat then breed them back to back again. For toy breeds I believe it wasn't at all uncommon for a bitch to have a litter on her first heat. I certainly used to breed 2nd & 3rd heat then miss one and would breed again if the 1st 2 litters looked good, and had a lot less problems than many seem to have now. Stopped doing this for a few years, now have started breeding them younger again (3rd heat now generally because of the ANKC). Nope, I wouldn't breed a bitch every heat unless she only cycled every 9-12 months, but have certainly done 4 litters in the first 6 seasons, and bred a 3-month-cylce bitch back-to-back once too.... not something I would do every day of the week admittedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 It's amazing that we can be told that if a guinea pig isnt able to breed young she hits massive problems and thats accepted but we have allowed animal rights to dictate our best practice - to a point where new people believe it and want to crucify a breeder for daring to discuss the scientific facts. Theoretically they control us in case some body somewhere is going to mate a bitch when she is in poor condition and shouldnt be mated - fact is though if the bitch is sick or lacking in anyway she wont fall pregnant. We should ALL be fighting anything being trotted out by over emotional loonies and being carried over into law which isnt based on science and isnt good for our dogs. Maybe if we did this then breeders in Victoria with ten toy breed dogs wouldn't be being made to keep them in concreted pens and they could stay in their lounge rooms. Pathetic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 My bitch is about to have her first heat and she's hitting the 8 months mark. Thinking her second heat will be ok to breed her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 (edited) My bitch is about to have her first heat and she's hitting the 8 months mark. Thinking her second heat will be ok to breed her. You couldnt breed her anyway in NSW before her first birthday Edited October 27, 2012 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 My bitch is about to have her first heat and she's hitting the 8 months mark. Thinking her second heat will be ok to breed her. You couldnt breed her anyway in Victoria before her first birthday I know a few wkc breeders that breed on the first heat but I never would, I think they're just too immature plus I want to see my girl work and know what kind of dog would complement her and that takes time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 working dog breeders still think they are immune to the legal issues and are of the belief that its a code of ethics thing - its not its the law. My point is as a breeder you should be able to determine what is best for your bitch depending on the variables you are working with not some crap put into laws in case some puppy farmer breeds a bitch when she shouldn't be bred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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