Sandra777 Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) Ignoring the head and everything else such as colour, size, bone, type and 'I know nothing about the breed' .. :laugh: . could I have people's opinions on which of these two puppies complies better with the breed standard which requires: Neck: Muscular, rather short, clean in outline gradually widening towards the shoulders. Forequarters Legs straight and well boned, set rather wide apart, showing no weakness at the pasterns, from which point the feet turn out a little. Shoulders well laid back with no looseness at the elbows. (note... puppies' pasterns don't turn out at this age, it comes later :) ) Body Closely coupled, with level topline, wide front, deep brisket, well sprung ribs, muscular and well defined. Hindquarters Well muscled, hocks well let down with stifles well bent. Legs parallel when viewed from behind. I will be very interested in people's opinions and perhaps the reasoning? ETA: Yes I know the date is wrong Edited October 7, 2012 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 (edited) OK I am going to stick my neck out, noting that asessing from pictures can sometimes give you the wrong idea of a dog and getting your hands on them is really the only and best way. My pick is number 2. While the standard calls for a short neck, the picture of pup number one looks to be too short. If you draw a line from the withers horizontally across, the head of no1 is mostly below the line. Now it could be just the photo so best to look at it in a mirror. Even with a short neck, the head should be above the line. Below the line can indicate a problem with shoulder angulation for example. no 2 also has a more level topline. No 1 seems to slope across the loin, though you would need to check if it is a result of how the rear is set up for the photos. Edited October 7, 2012 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I'm with Espinay. I know nothing about evaluating the breed but from the bits you posted number 2 seems to be the better fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevafollo Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Two also be my pick! Also how old are they here I found with my pick of litter she was the nicest in the 4week photos then she went very ugly for a while and at 8weeks was back to being my pick 110% I have recently had to sit her out for 6 months to grow into herself I guess she was always going to be a bitch that was hard to grow, but now she is lookin great again!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjelkier Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I'm with the others, I would say number 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Number one . I prefer the depth of chest and the pro sternum. I'm trying to ignore the colours and think that possibly there's a litter more upper arm. Prefer the pastern and the feet on the white. Would like to move the back leg slightly but also think there's a acceptable turn of stifle. Also much prefer the lower tail set on number one. The first also looks cleaner and maybe not as leathery as the second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 Why is low tail set good? standard calls for level topline, mentions nothing about a sloping croup. from the exert given and the photos, i would also go with the dark pup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 The standard calls for a low set tail. Sloping toplines as babies are very common but they don't end up like that as adults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chocolate Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Without a doubt the 2nd pup is far superior to the 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasha Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I am certainly not a show person but would pick Pup 2. From the front Pup 1 already has RF foot turning in. As pup grows and shoulders expand, I would be concerned this would then be exaggerated. Pup 2 has even front legs and as chest fills, I feel it would develop across there nicely. Pup 2 has a better topline. It is more level between the wither and hips than Pup 1. Pup 1 has a little arch in its back. Pup 2 has a better matched neck. By this I mean the top part of neck (throat) looks like it then thickens out to match the bottom part near shoulder. It does this in proportion. I think Pup 1 has a thin part under throat and then a thick part at shoulder. I think if you were to cover the body from mid neck and look at the 2 sections, Pup 2 joins a lot smoother and each section would match. Pup 1 is tidier in the rump where the tail joins. It does flow on as a continuation of the spine whereas pup 2 has a distinct rump/tail junction. Not sure if this is an issue though as not familiar with the breed AT ALL and have never shown a dog. I have shown horses and cattle though but these look nothing like them. LOL Does pup 1 have a little concave section in the sternum area in the front on pic? It may just be the colouration difference in the pups that allows that to be seen. So given I have no experience in selection of show traits in dogs, I would pick PUPPY 2 Good luck choosing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 What's your opinion Sandra ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowanbree Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 If I was ignoring the topline issue I would pick puppy 1 as he has the better front. Puppy 2 doesn't appear to have a straight front, slightly east west and in my experience this is not an issue that gets better - in my breed anyhow. Puppy 1s topline could very well be the way he is stacked, would watch him on the ground standing naturally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I prefer puppy 1 overall and think by 18 months of age it will be pick with little effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 would be interesting to see what people would say if both pups were photoshopped the one colour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I don;t think the colour makes a difference with these 2 pups though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) Thanks everyone who expressed an opinion, it was very interesting and helpful to get another point of view. The photos were taken the morning after the pups were 6 weeks old. Both pups are bitches incidentally... From the moment they were born the white pup has been our pick (no, not because of her colour - we are actually a bit disappointed she is white), but when we took these pictures the brindle one just leapt out at us. The thing we wanted in a pup from this mating was a level topline. We have no concerns about subtleties of the breed, they're both very good in the main points of type etc. My concern with the brindle one is that her topline appears flat but weak - to me her wither is at a greater angle to her topline (back) than the white one - with the thought that this could lead to a dip behind the wither when she's an adult. IRL the white one has never seemed to have that slight banana-back look she has in this photo, but the photo shows it's there which is good enough for me. Interestingly even now, if you hold these pups verticle allowing their bodies and hind-legs to dangle, the brindle one's topline curves, while the white one hangs straight from wither to tail set-on, when they were younger the curve in the brindle one was much more noticeable. Other thoughts anyone?? Edited October 13, 2012 by Sandra777 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I would love it if you could post pics of them at 8 weeks. 6 weeks may be too early to get a true picture but 8 weeks is generally thought to be the right age for the truest assessment of what they will be as an adult. So much can change in 2 weeks. Assess them yourself by looking at them in a mirror too so you are not looking straight at them. It actually provides a little more perspective. Thanks foir being brave enough to do the subject, it is interesting to see what people think and always a good learning opportunity!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 I have always found 6 weeks is better for Staffords espinay but it's a constant assessment process anyway :) They are 7 weeks today and we're planning on taking some photos tomorrow anyway (never seem to have time on "the birthday day") so will post them and see what people think. We have always found it useful to photograph them then look at the photos - probably the same theory as a mirror but allows for more measuring and comparing - got to get the photos right of course..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temperamentfirst Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I thought that the white pup is not stacked as well as the brindle - have a look at her hocks - and this overstretching could make the top line slope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yarracully Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 just curious but when the side on photos were taken was it done using a tri-pod on the camera as the side shots look to be slightly different angles. I thought at first the white one looked a bit short on length and hind legs but if there is a slight variation of angle that could give a distorted view. A slight movement of the camera operator, by as little as an inch, slightly forward and looking back along the dog will give a different look to the dogs profile. Even holding the camera slightly elevated from one shot to the next will alter the profile. Use of a tripod would mean the camera is constant height, angle and distance which would give a better comparison of the two. However I should point out that I am used to looking for squareness of body and level topline as these apply to our breed. Not that I am trying to be critical. I just feel that when comparing two dogs in photos you need to present each dog exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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