Breeding

[Steve]

Betterment of breed might mean having the courage of conviction to persist against popular opinion.

A breeder should be aiming for sound understanding of what they are trying to achieve and independent opinion IMO.

Breeding miniature horses I think they illustrate that when we get people saying

"I like XYZ, but every one wants ABC so I must produce that" Due to popularity,ABC is very hard to come by so those used in breeding programs aften have nothing else to offer but ABC colour pattern.A whole lot of horses are then bred with nothing to offer the gene poole other than a temporary fad colour pattern.

By the time this potential breeder has their XYZ and is producing,the fad has moved on,maybe to what the person originaly said they prefer.

No harm either way as long as XYZ and ABC are being bred covering all of the other bases as well. Its only when you get someone breeding for XYZ that hasnt covered the rest of the alphabet.

Nope, No harm catering to popularity while its backed by independent understanding of your breed as well,but not a sound basis on its own for improvement.

Agreed any more than it is a sound basis to only breed for a winning show champ or a great working dog.

[mixeduppup]

I've worked int he Horse industry for years and I've seen a disturbing trend not only in BYB but for some studs as well. They're starting to breed for colour instead of type and soundness. Conformation goes out the window if two horses will breed a nice colour. They're providing a popular colour rather than a sound horse. It's all over the board, not just in dogs unfortunately. People are trying to better the breed or at least keep the breed stable and then money hungry "breeders" come in and produce a crappy version but a pretty colour and the breed/type just keeps taking steps back.

[Faolmor]

For me, it is the difference between breeding for money, and breeding with the future of the breed in mind. It's the difference between someone saying, "Hey, your dog and mine are the same breed (or not!) - let's bang em together and go halves on the puppies," and someone carefully researching bloodlines, health test results, conformation of generations of puppies from both parents and much more, then choosing the parents of the litter based on a knowledgeable assessment and detailed goal of what you want to achieve with the litter...then of course doing the best by those puppies, for life.

Breeding for the breed means looking overseas to find the best match for your bitch, if you can't find one locally. It might mean forking out thousands of dollars to bring a dog into the country, or semen, or whatever. It means spending hours looking over the history of all the dogs in that bloodline - were they healthy? Could they work? What physical traits were passed on? What traits might you get that you don't want? I could go on and on. All that is breeding for the breed.

Anything less is breeding for money, IMHO.

[mollipop]

I like your 5th paragraph Steve.

Well said and perfectly sums up what I've seen in my breed.

[SparkyTansy]

I see breeding as maintaining the breed based on original breed standard (temperament, ability, and look), but I breed to better in each generation of my own dogs (including health)

[Steve]

For me, it is the difference between breeding for money, and breeding with the future of the breed in mind. It's the difference between someone saying, "Hey, your dog and mine are the same breed (or not!) - let's bang em together and go halves on the puppies," and someone carefully researching bloodlines, health test results, conformation of generations of puppies from both parents and much more, then choosing the parents of the litter based on a knowledgeable assessment and detailed goal of what you want to achieve with the litter...then of course doing the best by those puppies, for life.

Breeding for the breed means looking overseas to find the best match for your bitch, if you can't find one locally. It might mean forking out thousands of dollars to bring a dog into the country, or semen, or whatever. It means spending hours looking over the history of all the dogs in that bloodline - were they healthy? Could they work? What physical traits were passed on? What traits might you get that you don't want? I could go on and on. All that is breeding for the breed.

Anything less is breeding for money, IMHO.

there is no more wrong in breeding for money than there is for breeding for a champ or a pet or a working dog as long as the other things which mean the benefit of the breed as well as the dogs are not compromised. There are some people who are doing worse things to breeds in the name of breeding for goals other than money.

[Faolmor]

For me, it is the difference between breeding for money, and breeding with the future of the breed in mind. It's the difference between someone saying, "Hey, your dog and mine are the same breed (or not!) - let's bang em together and go halves on the puppies," and someone carefully researching bloodlines, health test results, conformation of generations of puppies from both parents and much more, then choosing the parents of the litter based on a knowledgeable assessment and detailed goal of what you want to achieve with the litter...then of course doing the best by those puppies, for life.

Breeding for the breed means looking overseas to find the best match for your bitch, if you can't find one locally. It might mean forking out thousands of dollars to bring a dog into the country, or semen, or whatever. It means spending hours looking over the history of all the dogs in that bloodline - were they healthy? Could they work? What physical traits were passed on? What traits might you get that you don't want? I could go on and on. All that is breeding for the breed.

Anything less is breeding for money, IMHO.

there is no more wrong in breeding for money than there is for breeding for a champ or a pet or a working dog as long as the other things which mean the benefit of the breed as well as the dogs are not compromised. There are some people who are doing worse things to breeds in the name of breeding for goals other than money.

This is true. I guess I was trying to distinguish between ONLY breeding to make money (without caring which dogs you breed from), and breeding from well researched, healthy stock. The puppies are still sold, either way.

[Steve]

Yes but at the end of the day its what you are prepared to compromise on to attain the goal regardless of what the goal is.You also need to be educated on what compromises may exist and how to determine how that may impact and if you can stand it before you make your decisions. Its why the term betterment of the breed isnt such a mickey mouse term after all because understanding what that means ensures that people think about and try to avoid anything or any compromise that may do harm over time to the breed - regardless of the primary goal.

[moosmum]

I've worked int he Horse industry for years and I've seen a disturbing trend not only in BYB but for some studs as well. They're starting to breed for colour instead of type and soundness. Conformation goes out the window if two horses will breed a nice colour. They're providing a popular colour rather than a sound horse. It's all over the board, not just in dogs unfortunately. People are trying to better the breed or at least keep the breed stable and then money hungry "breeders" come in and produce a crappy version but a pretty colour and the breed/type just keeps taking steps back.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals.

We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only.

It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out.

[moosmum]

I've worked int he Horse industry for years and I've seen a disturbing trend not only in BYB but for some studs as well. They're starting to breed for colour instead of type and soundness. Conformation goes out the window if two horses will breed a nice colour. They're providing a popular colour rather than a sound horse. It's all over the board, not just in dogs unfortunately. People are trying to better the breed or at least keep the breed stable and then money hungry "breeders" come in and produce a crappy version but a pretty colour and the breed/type just keeps taking steps back.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals.

We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only.

It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out.

[LizT]

I've worked int he Horse industry for years and I've seen a disturbing trend not only in BYB but for some studs as well. They're starting to breed for colour instead of type and soundness. Conformation goes out the window if two horses will breed a nice colour. They're providing a popular colour rather than a sound horse. It's all over the board, not just in dogs unfortunately. People are trying to better the breed or at least keep the breed stable and then money hungry "breeders" come in and produce a crappy version but a pretty colour and the breed/type just keeps taking steps back.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals.

We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only.

It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out.

This has been seen in some of the Straight Egyptian lines of the Arabian horse. Some looking so delicate that they would not manage well as a saddle horse, let alone an Endurance animal, been bred primarily as Halter Show Horses.

[moosmum]

I've worked int he Horse industry for years and I've seen a disturbing trend not only in BYB but for some studs as well. They're starting to breed for colour instead of type and soundness. Conformation goes out the window if two horses will breed a nice colour. They're providing a popular colour rather than a sound horse. It's all over the board, not just in dogs unfortunately. People are trying to better the breed or at least keep the breed stable and then money hungry "breeders" come in and produce a crappy version but a pretty colour and the breed/type just keeps taking steps back.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals.

We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only.

It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out.

This has been seen in some of the Straight Egyptian lines of the Arabian horse. Some looking so delicate that they would not manage well as a saddle horse, let alone an Endurance animal, been bred primarily as Halter Show Horses.

Yep,I think the trend started with the Arabs,both egyptian and Polish lines.Along with the notion that line breeding should be viewed as the norm rather than an exception,used to "capture" unique type and traits not easily available otherwise.

I've not been involved with the arabs for years now,but 30 years ago,the trend was well underway.

Interesting to think horses might soon be in the same position as dogs,with health tests needed before breeding.

[asal]

I've worked int he Horse industry for years and I've seen a disturbing trend not only in BYB but for some studs as well. They're starting to breed for colour instead of type and soundness. Conformation goes out the window if two horses will breed a nice colour. They're providing a popular colour rather than a sound horse. It's all over the board, not just in dogs unfortunately. People are trying to better the breed or at least keep the breed stable and then money hungry "breeders" come in and produce a crappy version but a pretty colour and the breed/type just keeps taking steps back.

Getting a bit OT here,but yes,I have noticed the same thing and its accelerating as horses are seen more as companion animals rather than working animals.

We get a whole new class of breeders starting who have no working background with horses before they start their Studs.Sires are selected based on winnings in halter rather than performance. Being a breeder seems to be seen as a status thing, Purity becomes more important and more stud books close,while new breeders rely more and more on halter winners only.

It becomes about the picture,rather than the efficency of the breed for their specialiality. Very much worse in the minis I think,who aren't generaly expected to "Work".We have already been hearing of breeders used that have been sugicaly altered to mask unsoundness.Interference is becoming more accepted over culling and problems in all breeds are becoming the norm,rather than just lines that will fade out.

This has been seen in some of the Straight Egyptian lines of the Arabian horse. Some looking so delicate that they would not manage well as a saddle horse, let alone an Endurance animal, been bred primarily as Halter Show Horses.

Yep,I think the trend started with the Arabs,both egyptian and Polish lines.Along with the notion that line breeding should be viewed as the norm rather than an exception,used to "capture" unique type and traits not easily available otherwise.

I've not been involved with the arabs for years now,but 30 years ago,the trend was well underway.

Interesting to think horses might soon be in the same position as dogs,with health tests needed before breeding.

already in with the ayrabs

cant stand a colt at stud before its been tested for lavender foal, scids and forget what brain gene test.

[moosmum]

Ahhh,Progress.

There was only one disease to be aware of when I was involved,testing recommended if using certain lines.

Few in my breed as yet,unless colour related Ie Lethal white overo and testing not mandatory.Its still assumed people know what they are doing.

Edited October 12, 2012 by moosmum