Separation Anxiety/escape Artist Now Becoming Destructive!

[itsadogslife]

'Stay' is a specific behaviour.

I said: - "a simple and obvious solution to this is obedience training" - the 'stay'(which I used as an example) is merely one part of an overall structured program that treats the whole dog rather than treating a specific behavior.

If you think SA can be treated by teaching a dog to stay, go ahead and design a reasonable experiment around your idea.

The experiment couldn't be simpler: one group treated with drugs and 'behavioral modification' designed by behaviorists (as per the paper you cited), the other with a structured 10 week obedience program, run by an experienced trainer.

O

nce the dog is displaying those behaviours (inclusion criteria in the study I cited), drugs + behaviour modification works better than behaviour modification alone.

You will have to forgive me for thinking less of ‘behavioral modification’ as per the paper you cited, than of a structured obedience program that treats the whole dog rather than treating a specific behavior.

[Aidan3]

If you think SA can be treated by teaching a dog to stay, go ahead and design a reasonable experiment around your idea.

The experiment couldn't be simpler: one group treated with drugs and 'behavioral modification' designed by behaviorists (as per the paper you cited), the other with a structured 10 week obedience program, run by an experienced trainer.

OK, so we have one group sent off to do their own thing with a hand-out and some pills, and another group that takes the dog with them and does some training every day with regular instruction from a competent instructor.

Already we have an issue with the dog spending more time with the owner (hence less separation to be anxious about).

Now what sort of things are we going to train the dog to do? You've mentioned 'stays'. So the dog is trained to stay, quietly, for progressively longer periods. OK, so the owner reports "dog whines less and follows me around less" on the self-report card. Less whining, less following around (statistically significant perhaps), but still the same amount of destructive behaviour (or maybe not, the owner is starting to think about the problem constructively now and is putting whatever stuff is left to be damaged away, funny how that works) - but how do we know the dog is actually feeling any better?

And where is our "10 week structured obedience + drugs" group to account for the variance attributable to the obedience program which we're hypothesising will be more effective than the behaviour modification program? Is it better, or are drugs impeding performance in our sample? We haven't got a control group, so we really should address this at a minimum. Is obedience training better, but obedience training + drugs better again?

Not quite so simple, is it?

But before we do this we should probably wander down to the local obedience clubs and drop off a few questionnaires relating to separation related problem behaviours in a cohort that has already undertaken at least 10 weeks of structured obedience training. Or maybe, to qualify that it was "competent" instruction, we could survey owners of dogs with obedience titles? That might save us a lot of time right off the bat, we really only need to find a few dogs who still display separation related behaviours to suggest that maybe obedience training alone isn't enough?

[Aidan3]

'Stay' is a specific behaviour.

I said: - "a simple and obvious solution to this is obedience training" - the 'stay'(which I used as an example) is merely one part of an overall structured program that treats the whole dog rather than treating a specific behavior.

I agree that training can bring about generalised changes, I'm just not sure what qualifies structured obedience training as a treatment of the "whole dog rather than a specific behaviour" that wouldn't also qualify the behaviour modification used in the paper I cited. If I was going to buy into the vague notion of "treating the whole dog" I'd say it was the other way around.

But these are just opinions. It's not objective. People who suffer with dogs who suffer from separation anxiety need objective solutions.

[Rappie]

Apologies in advance for the brief reply - I should be doing other things...

At a very basic level if I'm contemplating using medication to treat a dog with a behavioural issue I try to determine whether it has a 'problem behaviour' (it's annoying but does no one harm) or a 'behaviour problem' (there is a risk of ongoing harm / distress to either the dog or the people around it). The situation described by the OP is certainly one where I would discuss using medication in conjunction with behavioural modification. Instituting behavioural modification is a given, but in some cases without reducing the level of background stress and anxiety with medication they just don't have the capacity to respond well to behavioural modification alone.

Most of the commonly used behavioural modification programs are loosely based on obedience training but not such a regimented fashion. The most basic process is introducing deferrent behaviour which is, essentially the 'nothing in life is free' concept. Certainly for dogs that are under-stimulated then formal obedience training will help but that is not generally the focus of treatment for anxiety disorders (where the focus is providing 'coping strategies').

Edited October 6, 2012 by Rappie

[itsadogslife]

itsadogslife, if you want to have a debate about medical intervention and behaviour modification versus a training program perhaps you should start another thread specifically for that, instead of attacking the decision by the OP and her vet (a consulation for which you were not present) to use medication as an interim measure to assist with changing the behaviour long term?

Firstly, I am not attacking the OP. I was querying the wisdom of vets using drugs as a first option without consulting an experienced dog trainer. I have no doubt the OP is sincere and genuine in her concern and efforts for her dog. Just as I have no doubt in the sincerity of a couple of friends of mine who had been treating their dogs with drugs for the last 3 years. Said dog has not had a scrap of training mind you, let alone seen a dog trainer, but apparently the vet still happily proscribes the drugs.

You've been quite rude a couple of times and I don't believe your contribution is helpful to the OP.

Having a different opinion is often thought of as rude. Nothing much I can do about that.

She should be commended for being so committed to a dog she only recently adopted and given helpful advice rather than condemnation.

I did give advice, you just don't consider it helpful (as is your right).

[itsadogslife]

And where is our "10 week structured obedience + drugs" group to account for the variance attributable to the obedience program which we're hypothesising will be more effective than the behaviour modification program? Is it better, or are drugs impeding performance in our sample? We haven't got a control group, so we really should address this at a minimum. Is obedience training better, but obedience training + drugs better again?

OK.

Not quite so simple, is it?

Nope, still seems pretty simple to me.

But before we do this we should probably wander down to the local obedience clubs and drop off a few questionnaires relating to separation related problem behaviours in a cohort that has already undertaken at least 10 weeks of structured obedience training.

Having attended my local obedience club in Hobart on the domain (you may be familiar with this club) I would not call this a structured obedience program. I know that you or others may disagree, but this would not qualify in my experiment. I would require a professional dog trainer with many years experience as opposed to well meaning volunteers.

Or maybe, to qualify that it was "competent" instruction, we could survey owners of dogs with obedience titles? That might save us a lot of time right off the bat, we really only need to find a few dogs who still display separation related behaviours to suggest that maybe obedience training alone isn't enough?

That sounds like the kind of post-graduate paper that often serves to get people degrees but not much else. All obedience training is not equal. I would use recognized training methodologies.

I agree that training can bring about generalised changes, I'm just not sure what qualifies structured obedience training as a treatment of the "whole dog rather than a specific behaviour" that wouldn't also qualify the behaviour modification used in the paper I cited. If I was going to buy into the vague notion of "treating the whole dog" I'd say it was the other way around.

Because the stay (as an example, and not the whole) teaches more than simple behavior, it teaches the dog self control, to regulate its emotional state, to trust its owners judgement even when not around. A well structured obedience program involves far more mental stimulation and exercise than what I can see happening in the paper you cited.

[Aidan3]

Just as I have no doubt in the sincerity of a couple of friends of mine who had been treating their dogs with drugs for the last 3 years. Said dog has not had a scrap of training mind you, let alone seen a dog trainer, but apparently the vet still happily proscribes the drugs.

That's the reality. Some people just won't follow through with behaviour modification no matter what the benefits are. At least drugs provide relief and are safe to use for most dogs.

[itsadogslife]

That's the reality. Some people just won't follow through with behaviour modification no matter what the benefits are. At least drugs provide relief and are safe to use for most dogs.

On the contrary Aidan, the drugs apart from putting the dog into a constant low level stupor, have done nothing to resolve any of the issues the dog was first brought to the vet for. As I found out to my dismay when I inadvertently brought my own dog into the vicinity of said dog. It went into a immediate frenzy attacking my dog.

I live with a doctor Aidan, I know how many doctors dole out drugs like candy to their patients because it is simply easier to do this than deal in meaningful way with a difficult patient.

It is the 'reality' of the vet who continues to proscribe the drugs that disturbs me.

[megan_]

You can't use one dog as the only evidence to your claim, just as you cant use knowing a doctor to infer what VETS do with drugs. No one is proposing a drugs - only approach, or that drugs cure SA. rather, that when used with an appropriate behavioursl modification program, they can be more effective than behavioursl modification on it's own. However, even if they're equal, they give the poor owner and fog some respite - that must be worth something

[hankdog]

I adopted a dog in March who has a lot of anxiety issues. Luckily with 3 people working from home he has only had to be home alone about 3 times but for the first 3 months if I left he was inconsolable, he would sit with my husband or son and whine and howl, chew a bone or take treats but continue howling. really quite pathetic. After 3 months he did start to calm down and the obedience work I'm doing with him seems to be helping. If you read other posts you'll see a lot of pound adoptees seem to go through a period of escalating bad behavior before they settle. Obedience work I think creates a dialog with the dog and let's him understand you and vice versa. It does sound like he's a supreme champion destructo dog maybe people could give you their experience on what helps with that. I've found this forum invaluable for filing in my experience gaps. Good luck I'm sure your jogging buddy will give you years of pleasure once you've sorted this out.

Edited October 6, 2012 by hankdog

[corvus]

Nope, still seems pretty simple to me.

If it's so simple, one has to wonder why it's not really a part of conventional treatment protocols as recommended by people who make a living treating anxious dogs. From the horse's mouth: http://www.dcavm.org/09nov.html Maybe you should open up shop, itsadogslife? Seeing as you know something the rest of academia and practicing veterinary behaviourists worldwide do not. Obedience training can indeed have knock-on effects to varying degrees, and there are even papers around that show this. Tracking and agility training as well. But at the end of the day, the dog really has to be in a positive emotional state in the first place to reap the benefits. An anxiety-related problem is likely to severely compromise that side of things. Karen Overall has long pushed for early drug intervention. She's been in the business for a very long time and is considered the best worldwide. Maybe you should give her a buzz and tell her she's barking up the wrong tree.

[Guest lavendergirl]

The reality is that most people are not as committed as the OP - or myself - to fixing a dog with SA. An initial course of medication and some simple behaviour modification might provide enough of an improvement to keep the dog from being returned to the shelter. Most people are looking for a dog to fit into their home without too much trouble and will not turn themselves inside out to undertake laborious and tedious behaviour modification programs such as are usually recommended - they simply do not have the time or emotional stamina.

I found the paper that Aidan2 provided to be interesting in that:

" However, there were no statistically significant differences at any time point between the standard dose and the placebo groups in the sign vocalization."

I found with my dog that neither behaviour modification alone or combined with drugs worked to reduce his barking.

[itsadogslife]

You can't use one dog as the only evidence to your claim, just as you cant use knowing a doctor to infer what VETS do with drugs. No one is proposing a drugs - only approach, or that drugs cure SA. rather, that when used with an appropriate behavioursl modification program, they can be more effective than behavioursl modification on it's own. However, even if they're equal, they give the poor owner and fog some respite - that must be worth something

I am not opposed to the use of drugs to treat behavioral problems. I got myself involved in this argument because I am highly dubious about the use of drugs as a first option. Especially used without consultation with a dog trainer experienced with these issues. The cycle of drugs is very hard for people to get off, one ought to be very careful about putting them on that cycle in the first place. The dog I refer has not shown any improvement in regards to the issues that he was brought to the vet for in the first place. Why is he still on drugs? Why is the vet still proscribing the drug? Probably because both parties think well at least their doing something.

[louise6616]

Hi everyone,

Thank you everyone for posting. I do appreciate everyone's individual opinions, advice and experiences.

I don't really want to join the medication/non medication argument, although I do appreciate individual perspectives. I am not a Veterinarian and I cannot even begin to imagine the scenarios faced by Vets everyday. There are probably many pet owners wishing for a magic pill to solve pet behaviour problems, and every situation very different.

When I came home to find the worst of the destructive episodes, my thoughts were not 'oh gosh, I'm gonna kill this dog', it was 'oh my goodness, the poor dog must have been hysterical'. He has damaged his toe nails, has fur missing and little cuts all over him. Fortunately he didn't seriously injure himself. For me, I think when faced with the decision of medication or not, I had to consider his mental state, the cost (its $98 per 30 days), the long and short term side effects, and of course the possibility there may be problems weaning him off the medication.

Hindsight is also a marvellous thing! I can see that putting a newly adopted dog in the backyard with a doggie companion, a bone, a kong and some toys and 'assuming' he would be completely content was very naive of me. And I absolutely accept that forcibly putting the dog in the bathroom in order 'to keep him safe' is likely the cause of the situation becoming so destructive. Managing this type of behaviour is so far outside my experience, so the situation as much about desensitising and training the dog, as it is about training the humans. And everyone has limitations to what they can/can't manage. I am absolutely committed to doing my best at solving these problems properly, slowly , carefully and calmly.

But I am thankful for the experience, as it will make me a better person, a better pet owner but above all a better role model to all those around me.

Thanks soo much for your help everyone :) I genuinely appreciate it ) ) )

[Guest lavendergirl]

Hi everyone,

Thank you everyone for posting. I do appreciate everyone's individual opinions, advice and experiences.

I don't really want to join the medication/non medication argument, although I do appreciate individual perspectives. I am not a Veterinarian and I cannot even begin to imagine the scenarios faced by Vets everyday. There are probably many pet owners wishing for a magic pill to solve pet behaviour problems, and every situation very different.

When I came home to find the worst of the destructive episodes, my thoughts were not 'oh gosh, I'm gonna kill this dog', it was 'oh my goodness, the poor dog must have been hysterical'. He has damaged his toe nails, has fur missing and little cuts all over him. Fortunately he didn't seriously injure himself. For me, I think when faced with the decision of medication or not, I had to consider his mental state, the cost (its $98 per 30 days), the long and short term side effects, and of course the possibility there may be problems weaning him off the medication.

Hindsight is also a marvellous thing! I can see that putting a newly adopted dog in the backyard with a doggie companion, a bone, a kong and some toys and 'assuming' he would be completely content was very naive of me. And I absolutely accept that forcibly putting the dog in the bathroom in order 'to keep him safe' is likely the cause of the situation becoming so destructive. Managing this type of behaviour is so far outside my experience, so the situation as much about desensitising and training the dog, as it is about training the humans. And everyone has limitations to what they can/can't manage. I am absolutely committed to doing my best at solving these problems properly, slowly , carefully and calmly.

But I am thankful for the experience, as it will make me a better person, a better pet owner but above all a better role model to all those around me.

Thanks soo much for your help everyone :) I genuinely appreciate it ) ) )

Don't worry about that aspect - as long as it is done progressively most dogs are fine with coming off the meds.

[BC Crazy]

I understand this thread is about separation anxiety & the op doesn't want nor need to administer medication but I would like to comment on my experience with it for anyone who may be having concerns.

I don't believe in using medication as a band-aid measure nor do I believe in it should be used as a first option, a 'quick fix' for a dog with 'issues'. I do think if all other avenues fail & your dog is clearly suffering

mentally & emotionally you owe it to them to give it a try. I currently have one of mind on meds as I truly believe she has anxiety issues & coupled with training we are moving forward along the long road to a well behaved,

calmer dog. She has improved tonnes in a very sort period of time. She is not living a life full of torment & anguish any more. She is now even capable of lying down occasionally & just resting during the day which

is a first. And the medication has in no way 'dulled' her alert disposition. She is still a very switched on girl :)

Edited October 8, 2012 by BC Crazy

[CHA]

thank you for adopting a pound puppy and being so committed to his wellbeing. I've also recently adopted a dog from the pound who has anxiety issues but she thinks she needs to "protect" us from other people and dogs. We've seen a behaviouralist and are working on a few things to do with "leadership". I'd recommend you see one too, if you haven't already.

My first thing would be his safety and I'd definitely be constructing a good strong enclosure you could keep him in while you are not able to be around and leave him with lots of enrichment toys to keep him amused. Leave him in there for a very short while at first and then keep building it up. Basically so he gets "used" to you coming and going. Make sure when you leave don't give any goodbyes and also when you come back, just ignore him.

Keep up the good work and enjoy :)

[skip]

How is your dog going now? Can I say it is wonderful that you are committed to this dog. He is lucky as so many people don't.

I adopted a dog with known SA 9 or so years ago. I was told I had to get two dogs but that wasn't an isssue as I wanted two anyway. But of course another dog doesn't soilve anything. He was my second dog and I really didn't know what SA was but the first day I left for work, me and the whole street found out what SA was! :)

My guy is smaller so not so destructive as yours. I consulted with a behaviourist straight away and went on from there. He used to really go to town and get out of any place unless Fort Knox. This dog had partially sawed off canines from frantically trying to saw/chew wire fencing. He has been known to bail out windows etc.

Just wanted to let you know he did get better. Life was fairly normal and only things like packing to go on hols or moving house set the SA off again.

Its been so OK now that when I brought a new dog recently I changed some of the lifestyle of my dogs. The introduction of a new active puppy (kelpie) and the changes to routine all seemed to go OK. Dogs got on well. I went to work each day and had dogs bedded down (crates available open )in the spare bedroom. I put out treat toys, plastic bottles with fruit/treats inside and an apple for the pup. Dogs had house access but not unlimited due to the pup.

I only found out this week when I checked with my neighbours about a night I was away that my dogs have been " really naughty " barking lately. I immediately thought it was the kelpie that i try so hard to keep worked and happy. I was told it wasn't her, she was fine, it was the little ones. After a lot of questions i worked out that when I left, 2 mins later the noise started. I knew straight away who that was! I had no idea as he didn't start till I was gone awhile.

I simply left my dog with SA the next morning with access to my bedroom again. On returning home, the neighbours reported no noise at all. I wish they had told me earlier as I was upset that my dogs had been a problem. This seems to have worked and I check with next door regularly.

If the dogs behaviour had continued I would consider drugs while I addressed the issue.

Did you get a pen or find a way to keep your dog safe? I also wondered about the rest of the family. I was alone so my dog was fixated with me.

Would including the rest of the family in the dogs life more lessen his fixation with you? Just curious if this would help? So that someone else feeds him, walks him as well.

Hope you are getting along OK.