Urgent Help Needed With Agressive Young Dog

[megan_]

Dog fights start long before the first bite is taken. Muzzles are great in controlled situations - both dogs on lead- but are dangerous when one or both are loose. One can still antagonist the other. One bites and the other has no defense.

Jane Harper has a really good reputation. The dogs might grumble but they'll cope fine separated until you see her.

[Maddy]

please just keep dogs separated.

A muzzle will NOT STOP the behaviour ..it will NOT stop any display of body language from either dog, or the feelings which come from the two dogs being in each other's presence

what it MAY do is cause an escalation of whatever Spud is feeling .... frustration / defensive aggression , whatever ..as he may well feel trapped/restricted with a muzzle on.

What exact muzzle is it?

Can the dog open his mouth fully to pant and so keep cool ?

Can the dog drink and bark comfortably?

So many muzzles are not fitted correctly and can be dangerous

Definitely agree with this.

I've had a dog take a chunk out of another dog's neck while wearing a muzzle- muzzles absolutely cannot be relied upon unless you intend to supervise very closely, regardless of the type of muzzle or how it is fitted.

Muzzles may give you more time to react to a fight but lethal injuries can be inflicted within seconds so as Persephone said, safer to just keep them away from each other until you can get professional help.

I've had a young male dog like this before and my own opinions on dogs like this aside (I'd probably PTS), I'd suggest being very careful how you work on it- we ended up having an attack on his chosen victim that involved a badly ripped neck and a hole torn into the victim's chest that was fist sized. The victim only survived because I was able to get to them within less than a minute of the fight starting.

[ash1]

Thanks again for all the responses. Have taken on board all the advice about the muzzle and so we will just keep the dogs completely separated until I hear from Jane.

My main concern with attempting to have the problem "fixed" by a dog behaviouralist is that I don't know if I could ever fully trust Spud again not to attack. And maybe not Murphy, but someone else. I could never forgive myself if any of the dogs were hurt, but particularly if one of my seniors, and especially the two small breed seniors were harmed or killed by Spud. Or my senior shepherd who is the undisputed (at this stage) alpha dog (next down from us) who all the dogs respect and is very placid, but would fight back if Spud tried it on with him.

I'm going to wait to talk to Jane (have sent her a big long email with all the details), but in all honesty if she can't 100% guarantee to be able to work with us and Spud to fix the problem, I think we're going to have to face up and have Spud put to sleep. It's misery living with a dog you don't fully trust, like watching a ticking time bomb.

Besides the risk of trying to rehome a dog with aggresion issues, I am almost of the mind that I would rather know that Spud was dead than wondering for the rest of my life what the rest of his life was like. What if he kept getting shunted from home to home because people couldn't deal with his agression? Being a Bull Arab obviously he has a certain look to him (although very placid up until now) that could be attractive to the wrong people, I couldn't bear him falling into the wrong hands and living a life of misery.

I feel so sick about the whole situation

[persephone]

No one is saying that a behaviourist can 'fix' it...or that this is the route you should take ...

What a behaviourist will do is make an educated assessment , and then you have information on which to act, and make whatever decision you feel is responsible.

[mixeduppup]

Just so you know I rescued a female kelpie at the start of the year. She had THE worst reactivity I had seen in a dog, anything would set her off, from a play growl to another dog barking and she'd go for the nearest dog. I worked with a trainer/behaviourist friend of my via phone as I live too far away from any behaviourist and also started getting all that excess energy and frustration out by giving her a job, she worked 5 days a week with the sheep and was utterly exhausted by the end of it. We also focused on obedience training and fixing her reactivity. Now she is an ENTIRELY different dog. You wouldn't even recognise her, everything about her has changed and she is not aggressive/reactive at all now. I've been sick for 3 weeks and she has only had 2 outings and the rest of the time has been in the house and in the yard with the other dogs and she's completely calm. What I'm saying is don't give up, listen to Jane and take on her advice, what seems hopeless now may not be as bad as you think and may have a very easy solution. Fingers and toes crossed for you.

[staffydave]

Im shocked someone would consider putting a 10 month old pup down in a situation like this. Why would you adopt a bull arab if u were not willing to deal with a dominant maybe dog aggresive aniamal. the fact that no blood has been drawn speaks volumes, they are a very powerful dog if he wanted to draw blood then spud would have. It sounds to me like he is reaching the age when he wants to find his place in the pack and establish himself as a leader. He has shown no aggresion to you or anyone else why would you put him to sleep. it sounds like normal dog behaviour. Please if you are unable to deal with a young bully arab in your current situation find him another home there is nothing wrong with him from wat u have said.

[Guest Ams]

I don't think Spud needs to be put down but after Jane or Craig has given you their opinion re his actions/reactions you will need to carefully consider the options of re-homing one of the two dogs involved. I am currently playing musical doors with three separate couples of dogs/bitches that don't like each other and would each kill the other in a heartbeat if they could. Once they get to this point they "generally" don't get over it. (I do run a rescue so I am not looking at having to manage this long term as most of the dogs find new homes or go into foster care).

I have successfully re-homed a male that challenged mine here but when we have doggy meets at the park I need to liaise with that adopter to find out if their dog will be coming as my male that that particular male cannot ever be in the same space again. Both won't let bygones be bygones and as soon as they see each other they make a beeline for a fight.

[Alyosha]

I'm going to risk some wrath here and say this is not unexpected behaviour from this sort of dog. I know about how responsible pig dog breeders acre about temps, and only want dogs to be tenacious and hold, not to attack etc etc.

But how many of the pig dog types dumped in pounds as youngsters are from responsible hunting dog breeders? Ignorant wanna-be piggers are involved in lots of breeding, and I've met plenty of "bull arab" and other pigging types I wouldn't trust as far as I could spit a rat. They are often bred from aggressive stock by misguided fools.

eta - donning flame suit!!

Edited September 29, 2012 by Alyosha

[staffydave]

wow really cmon the breed is not the issue here. with eight dogs im surprised you havnt delt with similar situations before. this is normal dog behaviour for a young male coming into matuarity. Please find him a new home with owners expierenced with bully type breeds. To put a young healthy dog to sleep for acting like a dog would be very very sad. Again i know it would have been upsetting to c two dogs you care for playing up like this but we humans tend to read more into these situations then there is. There is nothing wrong with spud he just may need a different living environment.

[Dogsfevr]

We board lots of Bull arabs with super natures & devoted family pets .

Any breed or cross can be an issue with the wrong owners ,wrong scenario

It sounds like Spud needs to be in a home with less dogs,one of the pit falls of having alot of dogs especially young males of varying breed & breed crosses all together.

Like others have said he may not be the issue but is the one who is making the noise & as someone else said if he truly wanted to do damaged the other dog wouldn't have survived the first go but now you have 2 10 month old males who are most likely trying the peaking order .

But the choice is yours to make .

But even if you get a specialist out unless your prepared to do/make the modifications,make separate yards it isn't going to matter .

If you feel no matter what you can't trust him then you need to decide now & either find a good org that will rehome,return to the RSPCA or PTS .

[sandgrubber]

Sounds to me like Spud requires assessment, and the OP is doing the right thing seeking it.

I don't think any of us can form credible judgement with no information other than the breed types and ages of the attacker and the attacked.

It's always regrettable to PTS a young healthy dog, but if, after getting help in assessing the situation, the OP decides that's the right thing to do, I think she or he deserves our respect and sympathy. It's a painful call to have to make. In some cases it's the right decision. Sadly, there are lots of dogs needing rescue. If Alyosha's hunch is correct, and the pup is the outcome of breeding by a wanna-be pigger with no scruples about temperament, pts may be the best solution.

[persephone]

Sounds to me like Spud requires assessment, and the OP is doing the right thing seeking it.I don't think any of us can form credible judgement with no information other than the breed types and ages of the attacker and the attacked.It's always regrettable to PTS a young healthy dog, but if, after getting help in assessing the situation, the OP decides that's the right thing to do, I think she or he deserves our respect and sympathy. It's a painful call to have to make. In some cases it's the right decision. Sadly, there are lots of dogs needing rescue.

exactly.

Edited September 29, 2012 by persephone

[staffydave]

"If Alyosha's hunch is correct, and the pup is the outcome of breeding by a wanna-be pigger with no scruples about temperament, pts may be the best solution."

Wow again It is very sad that people can judge a dog purely on breed. Where does your info come from for this assumption come from really i tried to ignore this silly coment first time around then someone else throws it up again. You are the type of people who give my dog a dirty look when he is snapped at or lunged at by another dog purely because of the way he looks. How can u put a young dog to sleep for growing up and trying to find his place in the pack. Just because he is comeing out on top of these situations does not mean he is the cause. Even if he is the cause and he just cant get along with this one dog there are six other dogs in the household he hasnt had a problem with. im not judging anyone all im saying is give this poor dog a chance if spud was aggressive toward people it would be a different story. But a power struggle between two young male dogs is not a justification for killing the dog. Please put him up for adoption im sure he could fit in to many different family situations and be a great pet.

[Maddy]

it sounds like normal dog behaviour.

As someone who often has young, male dogs (and usually entire until they pass all testing), I'd very strongly disagree with this.

Posturing is normal, minor spats are acceptable but what the OP described does not sound like normal behaviour to me.

Regarding Alyosha's comment, I'm afraid I have to agree with her. We will take in greyhound crosses but not "bull arabs" or any other variation of the type (for the reasons Alyosha mentions).

No offense intended, Staffydave, but I think your attitude to the situation is a dangerously misinformed one.

I have no breed prejudices (I own and rescue a breed that a lot of people are still prejudiced against) and personally, I prefer the bull and mastiff types over many other types BUT.. at the same time, you have to be able to respect what your dogs may be capable of or more inclined to do than other breeds. Some breeds of dog are more prone to dog aggression, others are prone to higher prey drives and so on- these traits are there because we've encouraged them (there's nothing "bad" about them) but we have to respect and acknowledge those traits to be better dog owners.

Shoving your fingers in your ears and refusing to hear that some dogs are more likely to tend towards certain behaviours than others is very foolish and frankly, if I saw you out walking your dogs (knowing you had no respect for what they were), I'd cross the street to avoid you, too.

[persephone]

all im saying is give this poor dog a chance

have you read the whole thread?

The OP was the first one who raised the PTS option ...and we have strongly suggested she gets a professional assessment before making any decisions.

Many of the people who have posted here have worked in rescue, or trained dogs, or have had experience with large breeds....

Just because he is comeing out on top of these situations does not mean he is the cause

You are right - which is why an assessment is called for.

But a power struggle between two young male dogs is not a justification for killing the dog.

..and if it is ONLY these two dogs not being able to co exist peacefully ..then the owner may well make other plans.

Once again, consultation with a professional , who will look at things IN PERSON , and with an objective and very experienced eye will help take the pressure off the distraught owner , and help explain things to her.

Unfortunately I have seen first -hand the unacceptable behaviour of dogs bred for things other than household pets ...and have also been blessed to have had one of my most gorgeous dogs from a definitely non-pet oriented breeding .

Large dogs who may be either pushy , or defensive are not for inexperienced or impulse owners , so care needs to be taken when rehoming is done - a lot of soul searching is being done here, and the owner is trying the best they can to cope in a very upsetting situation.

Edited September 29, 2012 by persephone

[staffydave]

did you read my other posts i am well aware of the breed traits of the bull arab. I specifically comented that a person who isnt willing to deal with the posssibility of some dog and animal aggression should probably not consider a bull arab. There are bull arabs at the obedience club i attend. i also have a few friends who use them and crosses of them for pigging they arnt a dog for everyone. As i said the fact that no damage has been done to the other dog says alot a bull arab seriously trying to hurt another dog would most likely do so quickly. Obviously as you can c by my name i own a staffy so i have personal expierence with bully breeds luckily for me he is very easy going not to fussed even when challenged. All im saying and i dont understand why u would try to argue this point. If these two dogs simply cant get along rehome one of the dogs putting the dog to sleep is just pointless. I hope they do get him assesed by someone who has worked with bully breeds before makeing any rash decision. Its just hard for me to understand why you would even consider putting the dog to sleep for not getting along with one dog. No human aggression no aggression to any other dog. I will never accept the branding of all of one type or breed of dog Based on here say and misguided beliefs they are all dogs at the end of the day. Some people's attitudes are very sad.

[Maddy]

did you read my other posts i am well aware of the breed traits of the bull arab.

Yet despite this knowledge, you insist the dog's behaviour is normal while in the same breath, stating that bull arabs are unfairly targetted- you see where I'm going with this? Anyway, moving on..

I specifically comented that a person who isnt willing to deal with the posssibility of some dog and animal aggression should probably not consider a bull arab.

Yet complain about other people exercising caution around certain breeds of dog that you've already are "normally" expected to display dangerous levels of dog agrgression? Righto.

I hope they do get him assesed by someone who has worked with bully breeds before makeing any rash decision.

I'm afraid I'm a little confused here, possibly because of all the backpedaling. Didn't you say in an earlier post..

it sounds like normal dog behaviour

And I'm done.

As an aside, trying to guilt the OP over her feelings is in very poor form. It's a hard enough decision to make without armchair experts weighing in and implying that the OP somehow brought it on herself

[Squidgy]

did you read my other posts i am well aware of the breed traits of the bull arab.

Yet despite this knowledge, you insist the dog's behaviour is normal while in the same breath, stating that bull arabs are unfairly targetted- you see where I'm going with this? Anyway, moving on..

I specifically comented that a person who isnt willing to deal with the posssibility of some dog and animal aggression should probably not consider a bull arab.

Yet complain about other people exercising caution around certain breeds of dog that you've already are "normally" expected to display dangerous levels of dog agrgression? Righto.

I hope they do get him assesed by someone who has worked with bully breeds before makeing any rash decision.

I'm afraid I'm a little confused here, possibly because of all the backpedaling. Didn't you say in an earlier post..

it sounds like normal dog behaviour

And I'm done.

As an aside, trying to guilt the OP over her feelings is in very poor form. It's a hard enough decision to make without armchair experts weighing in and implying that the OP somehow brought it on herself

Well said

[staffydave]

I am by no means a expert never claimed to be. Why are you trying to spark up a argument here considering the topic of the post its not needed and silly.

It is obvious that you Have a dislike for bull breeds which is fine and your right i simply disagree, your above comments say it all. Im trying to find all the backpedaling. please give me one quote where i have u wont be able to. A young dog of bully type may be more determined in a stoush then a non bully type im happy to admit that no secret there im struggeling to understand what u are trying to acomplish by argueing. I simply am giving my opinion like everyone else i said it would be upsetting to c her two dogs playing up that way. If she believes they cant get along or she isnt comfortable having the two of them simply try to find another home for him which may suit him and his personality better. Wow i can c why u would want to argue with me on that point. I dont consider putting a dog to sleep who doesnt get along with one dog. Who has shown no other signs of aggression to dog or person a needed option. Sorry again if this opininion angers people just seems like commen sense. Where did i say she has brought it on herself that is a stupid thing to say but it seems u dont mind the truth getting in the way of a good story.

[staffydave]

persephone I agree with eveything you said there really well said not sure where u thought we differed