Urgent Help Needed With Agressive Young Dog

[ash1]

We have eight dogs in total; four mature dogs (eight to twelve years old) and four pups, aged between 9 and 12 mths. Everyone is desexed (the four pups all very young, as they are all ex RSPCA dogs).

Everyone gets on well, up until now.

Over the past two/three days our young Bull Arab (Spud, 10mths) has attacked our Dobie/Husky cross (Murphy, 12 mths old)a few times, with absolutely no provocation. The four young dogs spend most of the day running around our large fenced dog yard (about two acres fenced off for them) or sleeping. They play roughly, but well together, however now Spud has attacked Murphy with what looks like real intention. No blood has been drawn, but I am very fearful it may not be far off if we don't address the situation immediately.

A couple of nights ago Hubby was on the lounge watching tele and Spud grabbed Murphy around the neck (not playing, serious), hubby grabbed him off, Murphy fled under the bed, Spud chased Murphy through the house and was lunging at him under the bed, wanting to have another go (but is too large to fit under the bed).

Yesterday afternoon I was working in the garden and all the dogs were running around playing. Spud launched onto Murphys neck, hackles raised, Murphys was screaming, but Spud wouldn't let go (it seemed to excite him more), so not just puppy play as usually when they are playing and someone squeals, they understand they have been too rough and let go. I shouted at Spud to leave it, but he completely ignored me, I threw a stick at Spud (was too far away to do anything else), Spud was momentarily distracted and Murphy managed to escape and fled under the stairs - Spud giving chase. This was not play, Spud meant business and wanted to have another go.

This morning my husband was giving Murphy attention, Spud launched on Murphy again. Hubby pulled Spud off (no way was he going to let go otherwise), lost his grip and Spud was straight back in there. Hubby dragged him off again and shut him away in the house. Hubby says we have to have Spud put down. I just don't know if there is anything that can be done about an agressive dog? He hasn't shown agression to anyone else except for Murphy, but now it seems he is searching Murphy out specifically to have a go.

It has got to the point where we are now having to keep the two dogs completely separated, which makes life extremely difficult for us and not too happy for the dogs involved, and I now feel I can't completely trust Spud, who up until now has been a very placid (somewhat dopey) dog. Hubby thinks it is a jealousy thing, I'm not so sure, Spud is not particularly bonded to either of us, and one of the attacks were when the dogs were playing together and neither of us close. There may have been other times as well, the dogs are not supervised 24/7 as they have the run of the yard during the day. Murphy is losing confidence very fast.

Is putting Spud down the only solution? I wouldn't feel comfortable rehoming him, what if he attacked another dog? We have two small breed elderly dogs and whilst he hasn't shown any agression or interest towards them, he could snap their necks with a single bite.

Is this just a teenage thing that will pass, or will he always want to kill Murphy? Can it be trained out? Medicated? Or is hubby right and we have to have Spuddy put down for Murphy's and future risks sake? We also have lifestock on the property, Spud has shown no interest in any of them, but at the moment I'm feeling that I just can't trust him with anyone

[persephone]

Not pleasant for anyone..including Spud.

*breathe.*

let us know where you are situated , and someone can hopefully recommend you a professional who can assess the situation properly .

Online advice from experienced folks is fine, BUT as we can not see body language, hear sounds, experience the family dynamic .. it is tricky at best ...

No informed and rational decision can be made until this is done, IMO

meanwhile..I would strongly advise these two be kept totally apart . .... it will be less stressful and safer all round.

As you can see, there is the possibility of disaster here- two young adults .... powerful dogs, and one who is apparently being the aggressor.

Professional help will be invaluable ....

[ash1]

Thanks for responding so quickly Persephone, it's appreciated. I'm sitting here at my computer almost in tears. I have never had to put down a young, healthy dog before.

The two dogs are separated now and we will keep them apart. But we will have to find a permanent solution soon, as it's extremely difficult and miserable for both the dogs.

We are just out of Toowoomba.

I just spoke to the locum vet (regular vet's day off, have to phone back tomorrow) about the situation and her advice was to have him put down, she reckons she's seen a lot of these situations and it's just not worth the risk as you can never truly trust the dog.

[Everythings Shiny]

Quick question - how long have you had the dog who is starting the situation?

I had a similar issue which became a pack related issue (younger dog challanging a dog higher in the pack than her) and unfortunately it got worse in our case and for the sake of my older dog, I had to have the younger one PTS as the younger one attacked and nearly killed my older dog.

Definitely talk to a behaviourist, as Persephone said - it's hard to say what to do over the internet. Definitely keep them seperated.

I know its hard if it comes to the point of putting to sleep a young dog *hugs* it's not easy. Feel free to PM me if you'd like :) I've been through it before

Where are you located? If its in QLD or NSW I may be able to recommend a behaviourist for you.

Good luck

[megan_]

You need professional help. Where abouts are you? These digs need to be separated all the time until you see a proper professional (lots of "fake" experts out there).

I can't emphasize how important it is to keep them apart - should have happened afterthe first fight and the more fights you allow the worse it will get. Eight dogs need some pretty dedicated management.

[megan_]

And remember that the dog that starts the fight from a human perspective isn't always the aggressor in the dog world. Google he just wants to say hello"

[Rozzie]

She's in Toowoomba post #3!

[persephone]

And remember that the dog that starts the fight from a human perspective isn't always the aggressor in the dog world.

yes.... I believe so.

[persephone]

Two names which came up in a search -

Jane Harper http://www.dogsontrack.com.au/

Craig Murray http://dogschool.com.au/

Please contact someone today ..and start the process .

best of luck with it all...

[Everythings Shiny]

She's in Toowoomba post #3!

Yep, spotted that after I posted, I was composing my post when she had posted.

[dancinbcs]

As a general rule, once a dog decides it is going to kill another member of the pack it will not stop but that doesn't always mean that the dog cannot be rehomed as sometimes they are fine with other dogs. It often happens with entire bitches and where one decides they will not tolerate a particular bitch in the family pack but have been rehomed successfully.

Definitely get a professional in to assess the dog and make a decision from there but I don't believe that keeping the dog is an option or you will end up with a disaster on your hands. It will be rehome or pts.

[FalconRange]

Give Jane Harper from Dogs on Track a call. She's a behaviourist, and will be able to let you know what the possible outcomes will be, rather than the surmises of Internet randoms. Best of luck, and stay positive.

[SeeGee]

Jane Harper - will travel - she is amazing. She has helped me with my food aggressive beagle.

[ash1]

Thank you so much everyone for your responses and suggestions.

Spud was locked up for a few hours this afternoon (with a peanut butter filled Kong, so he didn't mind too much!) and then, unbeknown to me, husband came home from hardware shopping and let him out with the other dogs, but had put a muzzle on him (Spud). I hadn't even thought about a muzzle, so at least that is another option for us to manage Spuddy and Murphy until we come to a decision (i.e., keeping them apart as much as is physically possible and muzzling Spuddy when we can't).

I have telephoned Jane and left a message, it's a long weekend here in Qld, so if I don't hear from her over the weekend, hopefully she may be able to chat with me on Tuesday and we can go from there.

To someone who asked earlier, we got Spud and Murphy just a day apart from each other, so they have grown up together. All the pups sleep together in their own bedroom off our bedroom (weird house layout). There have been a few puppy scuffles ocassionally in the past at night time, but only in play.

[mixeduppup]

What kind of muzzle is it? A determined dog can easily get some types of muzzles off. Also a muzzle can heighten his frustration and a large dog like a bull arab doesn't always need its teeth to do damage. Be very careful. If you have to keep Spud locked away in a small area to protect murphy then I would suggest putting murphy in when you let spud out. I've seen dogs get out of muzzles and do a lot of damage.

[persephone]

please just keep dogs separated.

A muzzle will NOT STOP the behaviour ..it will NOT stop any display of body language from either dog, or the feelings which come from the two dogs being in each other's presence

what it MAY do is cause an escalation of whatever Spud is feeling .... frustration / defensive aggression , whatever ..as he may well feel trapped/restricted with a muzzle on.

What exact muzzle is it?

Can the dog open his mouth fully to pant and so keep cool ?

Can the dog drink and bark comfortably?

So many muzzles are not fitted correctly and can be dangerous

[Rebanne]

what do you do with the dogs? Are they working dogs, do they have 1 on 1 time/training with you or your hubby? Or do they just hang together in their 2 acre paddock?

A muzzle in this situation is dangerous, you need to play musical dogs and all the adults of the household need to be on the same page re managing this situation until it is resolved.

[juice]

Don't be too quick to condem Spud,fights don't just happen, its just we miss the warning signs, which are so subtle.

It could be lots of things, i have had the same situation with my pack, turned out the "victim" was actually the trouble maker.

Don't make any rash calls just yet and keep them apart, until you get help.

[Jetpoint GSP]

Jane is excellent, I haven't used her for aggression issues more for training/obedience training tuition but she is excellent and put her finger right on what I needed. I think she is wonderful and will be able to give you the answers you need. I am also near Toowoomba and she travelled to see me.

[Kirislin]

I cannot advise, but I just wanted to wish you well and I hope you get the advice you need.