Coroner Calls For Laws On Breeding Restricted Breeds

[Aidan3]

I think the chances of you losing an appeal or not having a council see sense upon presentation of your ANKC papers and corresponding chip is next to zero.

Apologies, I'd actually misread steamboat's post and thought their pup was not registered but the parents were. You are probably right on this point, does anyone know of any test cases involving a staff?

[BlackJaq]

But there are just so MANY crosses that could produce a pitbull type many of which would not even have ANY bully blood.

What should happen to the countless dogs without papers who don't even have any bully blood at all but measure in as a pitbull type? Should be apply the guide to all dogs before rehoming and kill any who match the guide? That would certainly take care of a lot of dogs in pounds and shelters everywhere, saving time, effort and lots of money.

We are basically talking eradication of almost all short coated cross bred dogs here

Edited October 22, 2012 by BlackJaq

[WreckitWhippet]

I think the chances of you losing an appeal or not having a council see sense upon presentation of your ANKC papers and corresponding chip is next to zero.

Apologies, I'd actually misread steamboat's post and thought their pup was not registered but the parents were. You are probably right on this point, does anyone know of any test cases involving a staff?

to my knowledge there has been not been a case involving a pedigree and registered Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

I do know of one Ranger who wanted to play hard ball in NSW but was quickly shut down with ANKC papers and chip.

[Sheridan]

And Steamboat seems unaware that there is no BSL in the ACT. Indeed, the head of the RSPCA has a delightful pitbull called Dahlia. You cannot, though Steamboat (or m-sass mark II/Dougie or whatever new persona is out and about at the moment) tries very hard to transpose laws in one state to another. What happened in Queensland does not translate to NSW or Vic or WA or wherever.

I don't know how many times one has to repeat something before it gets through the ingrained bias rife here.

But, again.

I agreed with the coroner that owners of the suspected restricted dogs should be liable to for the indentification of the breed & not the councils which declare them..

That, & "bad laws are still laws" are the sum totals of my crimes against the rabid mob mentallity.

While you all rail against crimes against the ''innocent'' yet practice exactly the tactics you complain about.

Starts with an aitch folks a capitol AITCH.

Which is a response to ... I don't what the hell it's the response to but it sure ain't a response to my post.

Yeah it was.

What I replied was sum total of what I said that somehow managed to get the rabid juices flowing.

I have not mentioned any ''laws'' per se, nor have I mentioned pit bulls specifically.

Nor do I care who has pitbulls, their crosses or their lookalikes.

My ''crime'' against the mob mentality is that, IMO, if owners are called to account the onus should be on the owner to provide indisputable proof of breed.

Me?, if i'm called?

I have a piece of paper provided by the breeder that says my little guy is registered with the the ANKC as a pure breed. It has a brief description, a M/C number listed that will verify the authenticity of dog it represents & three generations of ancestors, all registered with the ANKC.

And I make nom apologise for my choice.

Maybe those accusing me of insults would like to show where?

What questions haven't I answered?

Who are these other persons I am supposed to be?

Talk about paranoid central.

So far the only good thing to come out of this rubbish is that moosmum will no longer harass me with her lynch mob, look at me everyone I'm on fire, mentality.

No one knows what you're on about and I'm pretty sure that you don't either. So yet another troll on ignore.

[megan_]

No case. However the Vic law is very clear in that it specifies Amstaff's only - so a case in NSW is no precedent. I'm not scaremongering, I'm pointing out a deficiency in the law.

Is that really your response to Cosmolo, who got her dogs from a shelter (she is hardly some yob who bought a pitbull x from a BYB)? Her dogs don't even look like pitbulls and they're hardly a danger to the community. She bought her dogs before the new Victorian laws were put in place (pitbull x's have not been restricted in Vic until recently).

I think the chances of you losing an appeal or not having a council see sense upon presentation of your ANKC papers and corresponding chip is next to zero.

Apologies, I'd actually misread steamboat's post and thought their pup was not registered but the parents were. You are probably right on this point, does anyone know of any test cases involving a staff?

to my knowledge there has been not been a case involving a pedigree and registered Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

I do know of one Ranger who wanted to play hard ball in NSW but was quickly shut down with ANKC papers and chip.

[Cosmolo]

DOL defaults to QLD steamboat- if you had actually looked at the whole avatar you would have seen that it said Melbourne and we have been talking about Victoria the whole time.

So what do you suggest people like me do with our cross breed dogs that fit this standard? You still haven't answered this question. I understand that you agree with the onus being on owners to prove their dog is not a pit bull- what you haven't answered is HOW owners should do that?

Owners who will now NEVER adopt a dog that could even remotely resemble the standard in future are still in impossible situations with their current dogs now!

[BlackJaq]

It sounds to me like some people would like to see all dogs that fit the standard culled, no matter the breeding.

[Aphra]

I think the bigger issue here (which is not to say that the fate of dogs is insignificant, our current legislation is not ethical, it's not humane and it's not even effective), is that as long as we feel able to blame the breed and not the way a dog is raised, handled, cared-for and trained as the issue, then we can only ever go around in ever-diminishing circles.

Say that as a society we actually manage to eradicate all dogs that are Pit Bulls or look like Pit Bulls. What happens when there is the next fatal dog attack? The rate of deaths by dog have been 0-2 a year in Australia for decades, and all sorts of breeds and crossbreeds of dogs have been implicated. Before Ayen Chol, a child was killed by one of her neighbour's crossbreed hunting dogs, and before that a man was fatally mauled by a group of camp dogs. In each case the kind of dog was different,

So we have no Pit Bulls to blame; the witch hunt starts all over again with a different type of dog, which will get to wear the mantle of dog in a demon suit, as the Bloodhound, German Shepherd, Doberman and Rottweiler all have in the past.

These are the 2009 statistics from the US.

In total, there were 33 dog-bite related fatalities (32 events) in 2009.

-- 16 different dog breeds, or mixes thereof, were involved (counting 'mixed breed' as it's own category).

-- 9 cases involved chained dogs

-- 8 cases were in areas that were affected with high poverty rates

-- 4 cases involved packs of feral or near feral dogs

-- 3 involved newborns

http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/01/2009-dog-bite-fatalities-final-report.html

Or a complete list of fatal dogs attacks in Canada since 1964.

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/FDA%20Canada%20-%20Copy%20for%20website%20-%20Thru%20Aug%202012.pdf

One of those fatal dog attacks was by a Pit Bull type, yet Ontario banned Pit Bulls and Pit Bull types since 2005. Clearly since Pit Bulls weren't actually an issue for Canada, the banning of Pit Bulls had nothing to do with ensuring public safety and everything to do with using nonsense legislation to ease public anxiety.

And before I am once again accused of being a rabid pack because I've introduced statistics into the argument, I'll even provide some references and resources which suggest a more reasoned and rational approach to public safety.

Canine Research Council US: http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/publications/ncrc-publications/

Dangerous Dogs: a Sensible Solution Australian Veterinary Association July 2012: http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/publications/ncrc-publications/

The example of Calgary in Canada: http://www.savingpets.com.au/2009/10/what-a-difference-a-pound-makes-2/

[BlackJaq]

I agree. It is atrocious that if your dog kills somebody your punishment depends on the head measurements of your dog?? Surely the owner should be punished according to how preventable the incident was, not according to the shape of the dog?

[huck house]

Canine Research Council US: http://nationalcanin...c-publications/

This website sums up the subject well .

It is absurd and painful to watch the Magistrate at VCAT having to intelligently consider measurements from photos of a dog against amateur breed standard illustrations .

[Jed]

I think the chances of you losing an appeal or not having a council see sense upon presentation of your ANKC papers and corresponding chip is next to zero.

Apologies, I'd actually misread steamboat's post and thought their pup was not registered but the parents were. You are probably right on this point, does anyone know of any test cases involving a staff?

Qld, but think the same would apply in Vic. Dog was ANKC registered staffy, was seized - owner couldnt find the papers, ACOs didn't believe her, dog was destroyed. Forgotten the details now. That was the outline.

Sumosmum

The sire of the dog that attacked Ayen Chol isn't as far as we know declared a restricted breed. It doesn't fit the Victorian Standard. The dog that did the attack, well who knows if it would have been declared a restricted breed according to the standard. It's weight doesn't fit the standard. No photos will be released.

I am rather bemused about that. At 40kg, the dog is well outside the standard. "The Publc" seem to think that APBT are really big, but they are not. I don't know how the dog can fill the criteria at that size. Not allowing any photos is worrying too, + if the sire is not restricted breed, how can the dog itself fit the standard, and be declared?

Edited October 22, 2012 by Jed

[m-sass]

if, as has occured O/S, legislation is enacted to declare an ANKC registered breed as ''restricted/banned'', ANKC papers will merely confirm a dog is a ''restricted/banned'' breed & subject to all the ''restrictions''

The basis of BSL is the restriction of serious fighting breeds.......there are no serious fighting breeds recognised by the ANKC, it's not based on bite statistics, so what currently recognised ANKC breeds are going to be determined as serious fighting breeds over night contrary to their breed standards?

Dogs that are registered with local council can still be identified as restricted breeds and forced to be kept as such so i'm not just referring to people who do not register their dogs.

Dogs resembling restricted breeds could be indentified as restricted breeds for years, nothing much has changed in that regard other than the level of policing and action taken against them. Council's have had the power for years to see a dog and say "hey that's a Pitbull" and slap a dangerous dog or restricted breed order on it regardless of what the dog is registered as or what the owners reckon the breed is.......Bull crossbreeds have for a long time have been risky if council wanted to make an issue of it, it's happened to people along with as I mentioned previously, dogs that resemble Dingo's have been under the spotlight in the past also.

You have yet to answer the question re: how people prove their rescue dog isn't a pitbull given that Victorian law doesn't allow for DNA testing

Simple, take the dog to the vet and get a letter written confirming it's an Amstaff :D

In Vic that piece of paper will be useless to you unless it says your dog is an AmStaff, no other breed papers are accepted. So now what do you do?

What ANKC papered dogs have been seized that have supposedly fit the standards and weren't Amstaff's. The rangers won't seize a Staffy for example after the owners produce the ANKC papers, that's silly They are not going scoop up a Rotty with ANKC papers and declare it a restricted breed because it doesn't have Amstaff papers are they??

Edited October 22, 2012 by m-sass

[OSoSwift]

Simple, take the dog to the vet and get a letter written confirming it's an Amstaff

Yep great idea, now find one that will and let everyone know.

[megan_]

M-sass in some countries pedigree staffords are restricted breeds (Ireland I believe).

And one more time, the Vic legislation says that if your dog has the characteristics listed on the checklist, then the ONLY way to prove that it isn't a pitbull type is to have pedigree AMSTAFF papers or a vet declaration.

Please let us know which vets are willing to declare breed, because most vets won't participate because they don't agree with the legislation.

O

And once again, the Vic legislation isn't about pitbulls. It is about making a type of dig restricted. I've seen many a lab x staffy that would fit the bill. Are you really suggesting that any bull breed x, regardless of temp or owner, be seized and PTS? will that make our community safer?

There is a breed of dog that attends some training sessions that I go to. All the dogs are pedigree. Most people ( experienced trainers who trial) avoid these dogs and won't do any sit/stay exercises near them, even though they don't break ( for fear of their dog being attacked). These dogs have been in skirmishes at every session I've been too. Should we ban them too? After all, when the bullbreeds have gone, the little men could easily move onto this breed..

[megan_]

M-sass in some countries pedigree staffords are restricted breeds (Ireland I believe).

And one more time, the Vic legislation says that if your dog has the characteristics listed on the checklist, then the ONLY way to prove that it isn't a pitbull type is to have pedigree AMSTAFF papers or a vet declaration.

Please let us know which vets are willing to declare breed, because most vets won't participate because they don't agree with the legislation.

O

And once again, the Vic legislation isn't about pitbulls. It is about making a type of dig restricted. I've seen many a lab x staffy that would fit the bill. Are you really suggesting that any bull breed x, regardless of temp or owner, be seized and PTS? will that make our community safer?

There is a breed of dog that attends some training sessions that I go to. All the dogs are pedigree. Most people ( experienced trainers who trial) avoid these dogs and won't do any sit/stay exercises near them, even though they don't break ( for fear of their dog being attacked). These dogs have been in skirmishes at every session I've been too. Should we ban them too? After all, when the bullbreeds have gone, the little men could easily move onto this breed..

[steamboat]

M-sass in some countries pedigree staffords are restricted breeds (Ireland I believe).

Staffordshire Bull Terriers aren't a banned breed in Ireland.

The Irish Staffordshire bull Terrier, not to be confused with a SBT bred in Ireland, is banned as a pitbull type by the U.K.

As is the Amstaff b.t.w.

I am reasonablely sure the SBT is banned in Germany, along with the Bull Terrier & the Bull mastif.

The concern for these breeds now is Germany is pushing for a common law for the entire E.U. regarding breed restrictions.

If successful (unlikely) it would mean the SBT would be banned all E.U countries.

I am a little bemused that a veterinarian could simply declare a dog to be an Amstaff.

If push came to shove I doubt such an identification would be upheld by a court of law. Such a challenge would be interesting though.

An Amstaff without ANKC registration papers as proof of breed is, for all intents & purposes, a pitbull.

[steamboat]

DOL defaults to QLD steamboat- if you had actually looked at the whole avatar you would have seen that it said Melbourne and we have been talking about Victoria the whole time.

So what do you suggest people like me do with our cross breed dogs that fit this standard? You still haven't answered this question. I understand that you agree with the onus being on owners to prove their dog is not a pit bull- what you haven't answered is HOW owners should do that?

Owners who will now NEVER adopt a dog that could even remotely resemble the standard in future are still in impossible situations with their current dogs now!

On the contrary,

I have answered your question on numerous occasions.

Keep you dogs safe & there will be no problems.

If they do come under the notice of the authorities?

They are your reponsibiliy, you would have failed them. It is your problem.

As for your avatar,

I don't know how many Melbournes there are throughout the country. There may only be one, there may be more? Your avatar said Qld. There is only one Queensland.

There is any amount of posters commenting on this topic. It is not restricted only to Victorians.

So why would anyone assume every comment is from a Victorian?

[steamboat]

I am rather bemused about that. At 40kg, the dog is well outside the standard. "The Publc" seem to think that APBT are really big, but they are not. I don't know how the dog can fill the criteria at that size. Not allowing any photos is worrying too, + if the sire is not restricted breed, how can the dog itself fit the standard, and be declared?

I am rather bemused as well.

But for a different reason.

From the UKC APBT standard

Height and Weight

The American Pit Bull Terrier must be both powerful and agile so actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds. Dogs over these weights are not to be penalized unless they are disproportionately massive or rangy.

Edited October 22, 2012 by steamboat

[korbin13]

M-sass in some countries pedigree staffords are restricted breeds (Ireland I believe).

Staffordshire Bull Terriers aren't a banned breed in Ireland.

The Irish Staffordshire bull Terrier, not to be confused with a SBT bred in Ireland, is banned as a pitbull type by the U.K.

As is the Amstaff b.t.w.

I am reasonablely sure the SBT is banned in Germany, along with the Bull Terrier & the Bull mastif.

The concern for these breeds now is Germany is pushing for a common law for the entire E.U. regarding breed restrictions.

If successful (unlikely) it would mean the SBT would be banned all E.U countries.

I am a little bemused that a veterinarian could simply declare a dog to be an Amstaff.

If push came to shove I doubt such an identification would be upheld by a court of law. Such a challenge would be interesting though.

An Amstaff without ANKC registration papers as proof of breed is, for all intents & purposes, a pitbull.

In Ireland the SBT must be muzzled and leashed in public.

Edit: I think that you are confused about the 'Irish' SBT, there is no mention of it in the Irish dog laws. Is it even a recognised breed anywhere?

Edited October 22, 2012 by korbin13

[steamboat]

M-sass in some countries pedigree staffords are restricted breeds (Ireland I believe).

Staffordshire Bull Terriers aren't a banned breed in Ireland.

The Irish Staffordshire bull Terrier, not to be confused with a SBT bred in Ireland, is banned as a pitbull type by the U.K.

As is the Amstaff b.t.w.

I am reasonablely sure the SBT is banned in Germany, along with the Bull Terrier & the Bull mastif.

The concern for these breeds now is Germany is pushing for a common law for the entire E.U. regarding breed restrictions.

If successful (unlikely) it would mean the SBT would be banned all E.U countries.

I am a little bemused that a veterinarian could simply declare a dog to be an Amstaff.

If push came to shove I doubt such an identification would be upheld by a court of law. Such a challenge would be interesting though.

An Amstaff without ANKC registration papers as proof of breed is, for all intents & purposes, a pitbull.

In Ireland the SBT must be muzzled and leashed in public.

Edit: I think that you are confused about the 'Irish' SBT, there is no mention of it in the Irish dog laws. Is it even a recognised breed anywhere?

I understand there are quite a few breeds that have the same restrictions when in public.

But they are not banned nor restricted in any other way. Breeding for e.g.

The Irish SBT is not a recognised breed, rather it is the ''breed'' name used to masquarde the dogs true ancestory to circumvent the the banned dog laws in the U.K.

" No, it's not a pitbull begorra, it's an irish staffy, to be sure, to be sure''....

Do some research & will see it's a fact.

It is

Edited October 23, 2012 by steamboat