Coroner Calls For Laws On Breeding Restricted Breeds

[Alyosha]

I thought this was already n offence in States with BSL? It is in NSW. Last line is interesting though.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/latest/a/-/article/14986200/call-for-laws-to-ban-breeding-restricted-dogs/

A coroner wants politicians to make the breeding of restricted dogs a criminal offence as a result of the death of a four-year-old Melbourne girl who was mauled by a pit bull terrier.

The dog attacked Ayen Chol as she clung to her mother's legs in her St Albans home last year.

Neighbour Lazor Josevski, 58, was minding the dog for his son when it escaped from the backyard.

He pleaded guilty to four charges and was fined $11,000.

Coroner Kim Parkinson has ruled that Mr Josevski and his son Nick Josevski contributed to the girl's death by concealing the dog's breed from the council.

She has recommended that the parliament introduce laws to ban the breeding of restricted dogs, and that veterinarians should be required to report them.

She also said the onus of proving that a dog is a restricted breed should fall on its owner and not on councils.

[Linda K]

from the DPI Vic own website

Restricted breed dogs are five specific breeds of dogs. They have not attacked a person or animal or displayed signs of aggression, but they are considered a higher risk to community safety than other breeds of dogs.

The following dog breeds are restricted:

* American Pit Bull Terrier (or Pit Bull Terrier)

* Fila Brasileiro

* Japanese Tosa

* Dogo Argentino

* Perro de Presa Canario (or Presa Canario).

Only the American Pit Bull Terrier (or Pit Bull Terrier) and one dogo Argentino is known to be in Victoria.

From 30 September 2011, all dogs fitting the Standard, except where exemptions are given by the Standard, are considered a restricted breed dog.

Restricted breed dogs must be muzzled and on a leash while outside in public places.

[Cosmolo]

Imagine if they made vets report.. Some vets would refuse.. Some owners would just not take their dogs to the vet..

[Aphra]

I'm both deeply disappointed and disturbed that instead on inquiring into the circumstances under which the dog was kept and managed, the coroner concentrated on the breed of dog. More punitive legislation and heavier penalties aren't going to make anyone safer; statistically your chances of being killed by a dog are vanishingly small anyway.

Clearly BSL has little to do with logic, evidence or even common sense, but it is disappointing that a court-appointed official should buy into the prevailing hysteria.

http://www.headingforhome.asn.au/shadow-dogs-and-ancient-contracts-are-we-barking-up-the-wrong-tree-when-opposing-bsl/

[Chris the Rebel Wolf]

She has recommended that the parliament introduce laws to ban the breeding of restricted dogs, and that veterinarians should be required to report them.

Just imagine how many of these breeds would immediately stop being taken to the vet.

[melzawelza]

I'm both deeply disappointed and disturbed that instead on inquiring into the circumstances under which the dog was kept and managed, the coroner concentrated on the breed of dog. More punitive legislation and heavier penalties aren't going to make anyone safer; statistically your chances of being killed by a dog are vanishingly small anyway.

Clearly BSL has little to do with logic, evidence or even common sense, but it is disappointing that a court-appointed official should buy into the prevailing hysteria.

http://www.headingforhome.asn.au/shadow-dogs-and-ancient-contracts-are-we-barking-up-the-wrong-tree-when-opposing-bsl/

My thoughts exactly. I had so, so much hope for this coroners report and I've been so upset about the outcome.

According to a friend who attended it was assumed from day 1 that the reason for the attack was the dog's breed, and the entire investigation was based on finding out how the dog had not been picked up and wasn't complying with legislation. Nothing about the reasons why, or focusing on the incident itself.

It was stated by the family during the investigation that immediately preceding the dog grabbing the child, a table had been broken over its head.

ETA: I just read that link... THANK YOU. I hadn't read it before and I feel better after reading it. Was pretty despondent after the coroner's findings.

Edited September 28, 2012 by melzawelza

[sumosmum]

I'm both deeply disappointed and disturbed that instead on inquiring into the circumstances under which the dog was kept and managed, the coroner concentrated on the breed of dog. More punitive legislation and heavier penalties aren't going to make anyone safer; statistically your chances of being killed by a dog are vanishingly small anyway.

Clearly BSL has little to do with logic, evidence or even common sense, but it is disappointing that a court-appointed official should buy into the prevailing hysteria.

http://www.headingfo...n-opposing-bsl/

They did go into how the dog was kept. The dog had socialized with children and other people not from the immediate family. The dog was walked daily, and had not had any complaints made against him. It was said that he was very calm after the attack.

I think the inquest was disappointing. No photo of the dog will be released. It was said that he was very calm after the attack. It was a bit like everyone wanted to say they were not to blame, and just blame the supposed breed. Also, this happened during the amnesty period, and prior to that, crossbreed dogs were not restricted. The dog escaped because of a faulty remote garage door it seems. A lot of what was said was not reported in the media, but it did not take the direction that I thought it was meant to take, in looking into the effectiveness of Victoria's dog laws.

[Horsegal98]

That poor little girl. What a shocking loss of a life.

[m-sass]

Imagine if they made vets report.. Some vets would refuse.. Some owners would just not take their dogs to the vet..

And if people didn't aquire restricted breeds they could take them to the vet and not have to worry.

[GeckoTree]

Unbelievable, and so now this is why nothing will ever change. when a coroner seemingly didn't know what the law even was its now just a festering wound to countless victims.

[Jed]

More people are killed by sharks and horses in this country than dogs.

trouble is, m-sass, that many of the dogs being blamed and vilified are not restricted breeds at all. And your breed - whatever it is - could well be in the same situation with a change in attitude by the government.

BSL has been overturned in a lot of countries, as not working. It will happen here. Unfortunately, these findings do nothing to help prevent another dog attack tragedy.

It is all too easy to see how this could have happened. Too easy to never release photos of the dog, but say it was a restricted breed. Who knows? How disappointing.

[Brookestar]

They did go into how the dog was kept. The dog had socialized with children and other people not from the immediate family. The dog was walked daily, and had not had any complaints made against him. It was said that he was very calm after the attack.

I think the inquest was disappointing. No photo of the dog will be released. It was said that he was very calm after the attack. It was a bit like everyone wanted to say they were not to blame, and just blame the supposed breed. Also, this happened during the amnesty period, and prior to that, crossbreed dogs were not restricted. The dog escaped because of a faulty remote garage door it seems. A lot of what was said was not reported in the media, but it did not take the direction that I thought it was meant to take, in looking into the effectiveness of Victoria's dog laws.

I don't know where that information is coming from. All the information I have seen and read and heard is that the dog had never been walked and was never outside of its yard. I know people who lived in the street and none of them had EVER seen the dog. Socialisation was non existent.

A well socialised dog would not have done what that dog did. The family of the girl that was killed was playing in the front yard. They saw a dog coming out and run, they were scared of dogs, all dogs totally. They run inside and the dog followed.

This is normal dog behaviour. The NUMBER ONE rule when being confronted by an aggressive or unknown dog is to stand still and not move. Movement is what makes a dog act unpredictably. In ALL pet Education programs in schools children are taught to stand still and not move. I personally know of children who have responded like that and the parents told them to do the opposite. The children stood like a tree, as they were taught to do, while hte parent freaked at the front door, too scared to move. The dog which was growling went up to the child, sniffed them for a while and moved on.

There is NO excuse at all for what this dog did. BUT one wonders if things would be different if there was more education in the community about how to respond appropriately to strange and aggressive dogs. The vast majority of these attacks occur on people from other cultures, who are the least educated in how to interact with dogs. Perhaps if we started having the pet education programs that are a standard part of the preschool and primary school curriculum in ESL (English as a Second Language) classes we could start to get some of this information out to those communities.

There are also a number of schools and preschools in the surrounding area where this took place that refuse to have the state government pet education program come into their schools, as they believe it will cause children to not fear dogs and to try and interact with them. The number one predictor of a dog bite is fear.

I am not for one second saying this family is to blame. There is never any excuse for a dog bite. Problem is one wonders how different the situation would have been if they had responded as we know we should when confronted with strage dogs. NO dog bites for no reason. They bite when they do not understand anything else that is going on.

While I'm not totally in favour of BSL, primarily as I believe it is the training and above all socialisation of the dog, the handler on the other end of the leash (a dog is only as good as the person controlling the dog) and that you cannot reliably determine which dog is a restricted breed. the fact is APBT do have a lock jaw bite and once they take hold they do not let go. This is a biological response for them, bred into them. It is what allows them to be used as fighting dogs, and they do continue to be used in that way.

Other breeds have had voilence in them in the past, but they have specifically had it bred out of them. No such evidence exists of any such specialised breeding taking place for ABPT. This is the argument of the RSPCA. German Shepherds are the classic example. The ones that were in existent came from aggressive and questionable stock. That stock was eventually wiped out, not just here, but world wide and new non aggressive stock came in its place.

As for wanting to prove a particular dog is non aggressive, something along the lines of the American Temperament Test Society, test would be the way to go, but we have no such tests in place here. In the US it is very true that those APBT that sit the test do incredibly well, but they have lower numbers sitting the test in comparison to other breeds of dogs, and that is as a percentage of the breed in the community. The vast majority of APBT never sit the test. There are a higher percentage of other breeds sitting the test. Hence to say they pass has no impact, as so few sit the test. It would say something about the particular dog, not about the breed in general. One could however say the same in relation to other breeds.

As for photo's of the dog, I don't know that any were necessarily taken. The owners consented to the dog being removed and euthanised immediately. They said it was a bit pull cross. They pleaded guilty at the earliest opportunity and were mortified at what had happened. They also agreed that they had not trained or socialised the dog. No one involved in the case has questioned the dogs breed, ever. The dog was registered with the local council as a labrador and they admitted the dog had no labrador in it and they had deliberately lied when registering the dog.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Brookestar

[sumosmum]

They did go into how the dog was kept. The dog had socialized with children and other people not from the immediate family. The dog was walked daily, and had not had any complaints made against him. It was said that he was very calm after the attack.

I think the inquest was disappointing. No photo of the dog will be released. It was said that he was very calm after the attack. It was a bit like everyone wanted to say they were not to blame, and just blame the supposed breed. Also, this happened during the amnesty period, and prior to that, crossbreed dogs were not restricted. The dog escaped because of a faulty remote garage door it seems. A lot of what was said was not reported in the media, but it did not take the direction that I thought it was meant to take, in looking into the effectiveness of Victoria's dog laws.

I don't know where that information is coming from. All the information I have seen and read and heard is that the dog had never been walked and was never outside of its yard. I know people who lived in the street and none of them had EVER seen the dog. Socialisation was non existent.

A well socialised dog would not have done what that dog did. The family of the girl that was killed was playing in the front yard. They saw a dog coming out and run, they were scared of dogs, all dogs totally. They run inside and the dog followed.

This is normal dog behaviour. The NUMBER ONE rule when being confronted by an aggressive or unknown dog is to stand still and not move. Movement is what makes a dog act unpredictably. In ALL pet Education programs in schools children are taught to stand still and not move. I personally know of children who have responded like that and the parents told them to do the opposite. The children stood like a tree, as they were taught to do, while hte parent freaked at the front door, too scared to move. The dog which was growling went up to the child, sniffed them for a while and moved on.

There is NO excuse at all for what this dog did. BUT one wonders if things would be different if there was more education in the community about how to respond appropriately to strange and aggressive dogs. The vast majority of these attacks occur on people from other cultures, who are the least educated in how to interact with dogs. Perhaps if we started having the pet education programs that are a standard part of the preschool and primary school curriculum in ESL (English as a Second Language) classes we could start to get some of this information out to those communities.

There are also a number of schools and preschools in the surrounding area where this took place that refuse to have the state government pet education program come into their schools, as they believe it will cause children to not fear dogs and to try and interact with them. The number one predictor of a dog bite is fear.

I am not for one second saying this family is to blame. There is never any excuse for a dog bite. Problem is one wonders how different the situation would have been if they had responded as we know we should when confronted with strage dogs. NO dog bites for no reason. They bite when they do not understand anything else that is going on.

While I'm not totally in favour of BSL, primarily as I believe it is the training and above all socialisation of the dog, the handler on the other end of the leash (a dog is only as good as the person controlling the dog) and that you cannot reliably determine which dog is a restricted breed. the fact is APBT do have a lock jaw bite and once they take hold they do not let go. This is a biological response for them, bred into them. It is what allows them to be used as fighting dogs, and they do continue to be used in that way.

Other breeds have had voilence in them in the past, but they have specifically had it bred out of them. No such evidence exists of any such specialised breeding taking place for ABPT. This is the argument of the RSPCA. German Shepherds are the classic example. The ones that were in existent came from aggressive and questionable stock. That stock was eventually wiped out, not just here, but world wide and new non aggressive stock came in its place.

As for wanting to prove a particular dog is non aggressive, something along the lines of the American Temperament Test Society, test would be the way to go, but we have no such tests in place here. In the US it is very true that those APBT that sit the test do incredibly well, but they have lower numbers sitting the test in comparison to other breeds of dogs, and that is as a percentage of the breed in the community. The vast majority of APBT never sit the test. There are a higher percentage of other breeds sitting the test. Hence to say they pass has no impact, as so few sit the test. It would say something about the particular dog, not about the breed in general. One could however say the same in relation to other breeds.

As for photo's of the dog, I don't know that any were necessarily taken. The owners consented to the dog being removed and euthanised immediately. They said it was a bit pull cross. They pleaded guilty at the earliest opportunity and were mortified at what had happened. They also agreed that they had not trained or socialised the dog. No one involved in the case has questioned the dogs breed, ever. The dog was registered with the local council as a labrador and they admitted the dog had no labrador in it and they had deliberately lied when registering the dog.

I don't know where you get your info from, but a lot of it is not correct. Very incorrect in fact. I was at the inquest, that is where I got my info from.

[Aphra]

1348917198[/url]' post='5971135']

the fact is APBT do have a lock jaw bite and once they take hold they do not let go. This is a biological response for them, bred into them. It is what allows them to be used as fighting dogs, and they do continue to be used in that way.

Other breeds have had voilence in them in the past, but they have specifically had it bred out of them. No such evidence exists of any such specialised breeding taking place for ABPT. This is the argument of the RSPCA. German Shepherds are the classic example. The ones that were in existent came from aggressive and questionable stock. That stock was eventually wiped out, not just here, but world wide and new non aggressive stock came in its place.

<snip>. The vast majority of APBT never sit the test. There are a higher percentage of other breeds sitting the test. Hence to say they pass has no impact, as so few sit the test. It would say something about the particular dog, not about the breed in general. One could however say the same in relation to other breeds.

As for photo's of the dog, I don't know that any were necessarily taken. The owners consented to the dog being removed and euthanised immediately. They said it was a bit pull cross. They pleaded guilty at the earliest opportunity and were mortified at what had happened. They also agreed that they had not trained or socialised the dog. No one involved in the case has questioned the dogs breed, ever. The dog was registered with the local council as a labrador and they admitted the dog had no labrador in it and they had deliberately lied when registering the dog

Um, the lock jaw thing is nonsense and has been disproved so many times as a biological and physiological fallacy, I'm a bit surprised it is still being raised. Possibly what you mean to describe is the natural terrier tendency to grab and shake and their tenacity. I don't quite know what you ate talking about with the history of German Shepherds, they were banned in Australia, mostly because of anti-German sentiment post-war, amd the erroneus belief that hey were relayed to wolves. You do realize that the RSPCA are against BSL?

In fact many people have questioned he dog's breed, early reports called it a "mastiff x or pit bull x mastiff".

All dogs have "violence in them." Aggression is a survival characteristic, it allows any animal to claim resources, dogs, cats, humans, monkeys, whatever. Many breeds of dogs have been used for dog fighting, sadly, dog fighting has been a common past time in many cultures through history. However, I really don't think that extreme pack drive or whatever is the drive which creates dog aggression explains anything about this tragedy. The most likely explanation is high prey drive, high arousal and limited socialization. It is unfortunate that this inquest missed the opportunity to really investigate what happened, which would have really helped in preventing something so awful happening again.

Of course photos of the dog were taken, that would be part of the forensic investigation. They might not be released, but they certainly exist. The dog was not registered, the owners maintained the registration of their previous dog which was a German Shepherd, or at least registered as such.

And as for the ATTS, the vast majority of dogs of any sort won't be tested. In fact Pit Bulls are one of the more tested breeds in the breed statistics. The whole point of opposition to BSL is that a dog, of whatever breed, should be treated as individuals, and judged on their individual temperaments.

[Aidan3]

She also said the onus of proving that a dog is a restricted breed should fall on its owner and not on councils.

I can only assume that is a spectacular misquotation! It is logically absurd. "I'm sorry, I am unable to prove that this dog is a restricted breed, therefore it is not a restricted breed, your honour, and I ask that all charges be dropped immediately and costs awarded in my favour."

[Tempus Fugit]

Maybe we should wait until the Coroner's findings are published.

[Sheridan]

1348931840[/url]' post='5971247']

Maybe we should wait until the Coroner's findings are published.

Now, why would we do something so logical when m-sass and Brookestar know everything?

For the latter's FYI, just because no one sees a dog being walked, it doesn't mean a dog is not being walked. There are plenty of DOLers who walk their dogs at stupid o'clock because of various factors.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Sheridan

[JulesP]

1348931840[/url]' post='5971247']

Maybe we should wait until the Coroner's findings are published.

Now, why would we do something so logical when m-sass and Brookestar know everything?

For the latter's FYI, just because no one sees a dog being walked, it doesn't mean a dog is not being walked. There are plenty of DOLers who walk their dogs at stupid o'clock because of various factors.

I currently never walk my dogs out of my house. We go in the car to various places. Anyone spying on me would say I never walked them.

[Plan B]

the fact is APBT do have a lock jaw bite

You really, really just said that, didn't you?

[Aidan3]

1348931840[/url]' post='5971247']

Maybe we should wait until the Coroner's findings are published.

Now, why would we do something so logical when m-sass and Brookestar know everything?

For the latter's FYI, just because no one sees a dog being walked, it doesn't mean a dog is not being walked. There are plenty of DOLers who walk their dogs at stupid o'clock because of various factors.

I currently never walk my dogs out of my house. We go in the car to various places. Anyone spying on me would say I never walked them.

And apart from that, this particular dog lived elsewhere...