sheena Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 My border collie has a very strong "eye" & will often get "stuck" on something as she stares. She is also "motion reactive" & when she wants to chase something, or if she is on the end of the leash, she spins...she always has to have a leaf in her mouth. If I don't catch it quick enough, she just seems to shut her ears off to me, & I have often joked that when she has a leaf in her mouth...it affects her ears & she can't hear me. I have learnt to keep it under control with LAT, but according to Leslie McDevitt, it is true, when she is like this, she is functioning on a different part of her brain, & she really can't hear me. A dog that gets "stuck" is operating on the primal part of it's brain not the operant, which is "if I sit I will get a cookie" part. Evidently, it doesn't just happen to border collies, though they are the main ones, because of the way they work sheep, it can happen to any breed of dog that is doing agility. They can get "stuck" on weave poles or tunnels & just can't hear you when you call them away. It is very hard for a dog to learn to switch out of eye/stalk mode. They are called "sticky" dogs. This is from an article in this months Clean Run Magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ams Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Interesting. I have a Catahoula Leopard Dog x in rescue atm and her foster carer and I refer to her as autistic. She will get focused on something and you could wave a bbq chook at her and she would not notice. The only thing that does is standing between her and whatever she is focused on and talk very softly to her until she comes back to earth. She doesn't do agility but affects where she can be taken because if she gets excited about meeting a new dog she can pull her handler over in her "need" to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 :) we have to tread a fine line with our working dogs ..'eye' is essential , but too much is a damn nuisance! A good nuisance ..but... We had one little bitch who would just follow the poultry around for hours ..eyeing them . She also tried to eye stumpytail lizards ..but of course they did not respond by keeping still... she also used to try with old Sally Horse ..and that was a sight! Weasel was about 12 kg ..and she would crouch down, staring intently ..and move backwards, but never break eye contact... Weasel was never a really good worker because of her too strong 'eye' . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 I have a Catahoula Leopard Dog x in rescue atm and her foster carer and I refer to her as autistic. She will get focused on something and you could wave a bbq chook at her and she would not notice. It's not prey drive, Ams? I have seen that many times ..utter fixation for extended periods ..and then ,one day ,it escalates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ams Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) I have a Catahoula Leopard Dog x in rescue atm and her foster carer and I refer to her as autistic. She will get focused on something and you could wave a bbq chook at her and she would not notice. It's not prey drive, Ams? I have seen that many times ..utter fixation for extended periods ..and then ,one day ,it escalates. I have been worried that it is but she is getting better and once talked down she is fine. Raising the voice does nothing but talking really quietly to her does, that is why we call her autistic. We've done a fair bit of research on the breed and apparently they are fairly manic until they reach about 3 yrs of age. They are also a very physical breed in that they are very aware of their body, how much strength they have and also have incredible flexibility. She can leap and turn almost completely around with no effort at all. She is currently walked on a double lead (one end to check chain and one on a head harness) as she will flip herself around until she gets the halti off but can't manouvre both. She spends most of her time at the foster carers home but comes out on the property for zoomies and a change of rules about twice a week. She seems to love the drama of being here with all the other dogs and having birds to chase around the dam, but is easy enough to recall from those things. She always returns from here to the foster carers exhausted even if the visit is only for a few hours. Seems it is the mental stimulation of different rules here that wears her down as the breed is renowned for being able to work all day. It is mostly related to meeting other dogs on leash or through a fence that gets her stuck. eta we never let her get stuck for extended periods and will always break her fascination within a few minutes and reward when she refocuses. She loves human attention so a cuddle is just as rewarding for her as a food treat. Edited September 27, 2012 by Ams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Is it really a catahoula cross, I didn't think we had any here and if we did the numbers would be so small there wouldn't be any crosses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ams Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Is it really a catahoula cross, I didn't think we had any here and if we did the numbers would be so small there wouldn't be any crosses? It is what she is microchipped as. There are "breeders" in Qld. I use the term loosely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Ahh, I see, probably brought in to create hunting dogs. Have you got any pictures up anywhere, I would love to see her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 There are catahoulas in QLD :) They look fantastic!! . I would still consider it a prey drive possibility ... at first thought .... any video? I would love to see it, and her! Funny you say about the quiet voice.. In my previous life training dogs ..dogs who were scatty and /or pre occupied would go into the whisper program ..... we would be whispering praise/cues for food ..everything, for a while , until they paid close attention most of the time. It worked a treat . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 We've had a few catahoulas and x's (including an entire litter ) in rescue in WA in the past few years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) I have one 'sticky' dog and one obedient girl who will recall on a dime with a smile on her face - I only realised recently how little 'eye' my obedient girl uses when working! She has it in her repertoire but seems to prefer to do continuous flanks more like a shepherd dog. She is much easier to live with but needs a different style of handling on stock to my 'sticky' dog. Weez does a great stalk and works nicely when the mood takes him, but he's been a huge challenge to train reliably Edit - Oh and yes I have put roast chicken on his tongue while he is in this mode and it just fell to the floor! Edited September 27, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 A visual example! My 2 love stalking their Belgian friends. Lots of motionless staring. Poppy was quite painful when I first started herding. She would get the sheep in a corner and then go in a trance. I had to physically break her line of sight sometimes and she certainly couldn't 'hear' me. Poppy always greets me with a leaf Sheena but she isn't doing the trance thing when she does that. There is usually lots of squeaking involved. If I yell at one of the other pets Poppy will go get a leaf or stick then too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparassidae Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Mia does it to walls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazyWal Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) We've had a few catahoulas and x's (including an entire litter ) in rescue in WA in the past few years There is one FTGH on Gumtree in Cairns at the moment. Says it's purebred. Edited September 27, 2012 by stans mum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 A visual example! My 2 love stalking their Belgian friends. Lots of motionless staring. Poppy was quite painful when I first started herding. She would get the sheep in a corner and then go in a trance. I had to physically break her line of sight sometimes and she certainly couldn't 'hear' me. Poppy always greets me with a leaf Sheena but she isn't doing the trance thing when she does that. There is usually lots of squeaking involved. If I yell at one of the other pets Poppy will go get a leaf or stick then too. When Bindi does the "leaf" thing, she is in a trance even though she is on the move, usually going round & round in circles. She also has to have a leaf when swimming. I always have to check, she has nothing in her mouth before we do a run at agility, otherwise she is just off in her own little world. Her strong eye/stare is forever getting her into trouble as she goes into a trance when she sees a SWF & SWF's don't like being stared at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 I found those QLD breeders. Wonder if they can be ANKC registered or they just haven't bothered. I'm lucky with my coolie, he has a good amount of eye but doesn't get sticky. It's one reason I wasn't keen on BCs for herding, if you get a sticky dog they can be a lot harder to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 How is this any different from prey drive (after all, herding is just modified prey drive)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 How is this any different from prey drive (after all, herding is just modified prey drive)? If you watch a loose eyed dog work stock then watch one with a strong eye you will see the zone they go into. Both still have the same level of prey drive. GSD's have huge prey drive but are a loose eyed herder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 How is this any different from prey drive (after all, herding is just modified prey drive)? It isn't. It is prey drive without the chomping. The human is supposed to do the chomping bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Behaviour motor pattern of prey drive which is orient -> eye -> stalk -> chase -> grab-bite -> kill-bite, heading dogs have a hypertrophied eye, stalk and chase, and a lowered grab-bite and kill-bite - looking it up in the book Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine ORigin, Behaviour and Evolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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