The Project, Tonight.

[Clyde]

Just saw a clip for the Project tonight, think it starts at 6pm?

An RSPCA Insepctor is calling for pups and kittens to be banned for sale from pet shops.

[Horsegal98]

Bugger would have liked to see it

[Purdie]

I was waiting on the wrong channel so only caught the tail end of it.

[fuzzy82]

It was pretty good, but once again didn't really explain what other options people have.

[Guest lavendergirl]

I thought it was quite good - pointing out that attitudes in the UK have changed, pets are rarely sold through pet shops and people get their dogs through shelters or breeders.

I would have liked to have seen more emphasis on the puppy farm connection though.

[Squidgy]

I thought it was quite good - pointing out that attitudes in the UK have changed, pets are rarely sold through pet shops and people get their dogs through shelters or breeders.

I would have liked to have seen more emphasis on the puppy farm connection though.

It is because the word puppy farm gets thrown around to much and it is hard for people to distinguish what a puppy farm is, they think of the crammed illegal mills that you see all over google, when in fact a puppy farm is a commercial breeding facility, but because some of these places seem so reputable they see them as breeders not farmers...... more effort needs to go into teaching people about what a farm really is

[Steve]

I thought it was quite good - pointing out that attitudes in the UK have changed, pets are rarely sold through pet shops and people get their dogs through shelters or breeders.

I would have liked to have seen more emphasis on the puppy farm connection though.

It is because the word puppy farm gets thrown around to much and it is hard for people to distinguish what a puppy farm is, they think of the crammed illegal mills that you see all over google, when in fact a puppy farm is a commercial breeding facility, but because some of these places seem so reputable they see them as breeders not farmers...... more effort needs to go into teaching people about what a farm really is

Agreed - but what a farm is according to who? You say its a commercial breeding facility but that's not the definition used by governments and many canine groups who have agreed that the definition of a puppy farmer is someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions. Once you begin to judge someone based on what appears to be their motivation eg breeding for profit you hit a whole new set of problems.

[Guest lavendergirl]

I thought it was quite good - pointing out that attitudes in the UK have changed, pets are rarely sold through pet shops and people get their dogs through shelters or breeders.

I would have liked to have seen more emphasis on the puppy farm connection though.

It is because the word puppy farm gets thrown around to much and it is hard for people to distinguish what a puppy farm is, they think of the crammed illegal mills that you see all over google, when in fact a puppy farm is a commercial breeding facility, but because some of these places seem so reputable they see them as breeders not farmers...... more effort needs to go into teaching people about what a farm really is

Agreed - but what a farm is according to who? You say its a commercial breeding facility but that's not the definition used by governments and many canine groups who have agreed that the definition of a puppy farmer is someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions. Once you begin to judge someone based on what appears to be their motivation eg breeding for profit you hit a whole new set of problems.

This is the definition that the general public understands also.

[Squidgy]

The government needs to change the definition because anyone who has a commercial breeding establishment for the sole purpose of churning out puppies for the puppy market is a puppy farm, no matter how much sparkle they put on top

[Steve]

However, calling for changes to puppy farms ends up ensuring new laws actually benefit and advantage commercial breeders over small hobby breeders .

Someone breeding commercially is different to someone who is breeding in sub standard conditions unless they are also breeding in substandard conditions. Standard conditions are those which were determined by regs and laws which make it easier to breed large numbers commercially and make it difficult for small breeders to comply. They are standards which small breeders dont want to have to comply with. How will you determine who is breeding commercially? Is there a magic number 5? 10? 20? 50? or is it if they say they are breeding for nothing more than money? Maybe its if they are not breeding registered dogs or perhaps if they dont show their dogs. When you run off small breeders you leave a greater demand for commercial breeders and the situation gets worse not better for the dogs.

2 weeks ago I spoke with a registered breeder who has 10 dogs of a Toy breed. They are a very laid back breed and do better living inside the home as part of the family .The breeder lives on a large property out in the boonies and her dogs sleep inside and run free all day but council have said she needs a DA to be able to breed her dogs and in order to comply she needs to build a concreted area and house her dogs there in order to comply and be within the standards. Her choices are desex all of her dogs - she is able to have her dogs living inside as long as they are not fertile or Sell all of her dogs and give up breeding or comply with the order , spend 35,000 dollars to do so even though she knows its not in her dog's best interest . If she spends $35000 to set the place up and keep her dogs in what she considers to be substandard but will be standard according to the laws isnt she more tempted to breed more puppies to cover her expenses?

i know another breeder who has a concreted area all set up and her dogs have never been in it as they live in her house because she believes its not good for the dogs to live in regulation standard conditions - not many breeders who are not breeding commercially have that kind of money to throw around without any hope of ever having anything to show for it.

Its not as easy as it all sounds and there are unintended consequences when changes are advocated without all of the required knowledge.

[mita]

I thought it was quite good - pointing out that attitudes in the UK have changed, pets are rarely sold through pet shops and people get their dogs through shelters or breeders.

That's very interesting & hopeful.

It'd be great to see that attitude change spelled out in detail... especially what factors have contributed to it. We might be able to learn a lot from it... that would help Australian dogs.

Edited September 24, 2012 by mita

[Sheridan]

I thought it was quite good - pointing out that attitudes in the UK have changed, pets are rarely sold through pet shops and people get their dogs through shelters or breeders.

I would have liked to have seen more emphasis on the puppy farm connection though.

It is because the word puppy farm gets thrown around to much and it is hard for people to distinguish what a puppy farm is, they think of the crammed illegal mills that you see all over google, when in fact a puppy farm is a commercial breeding facility, but because some of these places seem so reputable they see them as breeders not farmers...... more effort needs to go into teaching people about what a farm really is

Agreed - but what a farm is according to who? You say its a commercial breeding facility but that's not the definition used by governments and many canine groups who have agreed that the definition of a puppy farmer is someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions. Once you begin to judge someone based on what appears to be their motivation eg breeding for profit you hit a whole new set of problems.

Here we go again.

This is the definition that the general public understands also.

According to whom?

Edited September 25, 2012 by Sheridan

[Guest lavendergirl]

I thought it was quite good - pointing out that attitudes in the UK have changed, pets are rarely sold through pet shops and people get their dogs through shelters or breeders.

I would have liked to have seen more emphasis on the puppy farm connection though.

It is because the word puppy farm gets thrown around to much and it is hard for people to distinguish what a puppy farm is, they think of the crammed illegal mills that you see all over google, when in fact a puppy farm is a commercial breeding facility, but because some of these places seem so reputable they see them as breeders not farmers...... more effort needs to go into teaching people about what a farm really is

Agreed - but what a farm is according to who? You say its a commercial breeding facility but that's not the definition used by governments and many canine groups who have agreed that the definition of a puppy farmer is someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions. Once you begin to judge someone based on what appears to be their motivation eg breeding for profit you hit a whole new set of problems.

Here we go again.

This is the definition that the general public understands also.

According to whom?

C'mon - ask a person on the street if a puppy farm is a good or bad thing and what answer do you think you will get??

[Steve]

Agreed but ask them what they think a puppy farm is and you will get varying answers.

If we all agree that we dont want to see dogs being kept in concrete pens and isolated from humans and other dogs then why do we keep calling for and getting more and more legislation which makes even small breeders do this - to a point where they walk away therefore given their share of the market to bigger breeders?

If a the definition puppyfarm is in fact a commercial breeding establishment then why on earth is the government enabling them to be commercial breeding establishments ?

If the goal is to cut down on puppies being bred in large scale establishments without due care and socialisation we need to say that but calling for a stop to all commercial breeding means any breeder can be accused of that regardless of what they feel or say their motivation is. Many show breeders call other show breeders puppy farmers because they dont like them or because they breed a few more puppies than they do. If we are going to be serious about targeting this then we will need to have a clear line in the sand - how do we determine who is breeding commercially? What criteria will we use to decide this?

It cant be just about whether you keep your dogs in concrete pens because you have no choice regardless of whether you are breeding commercially or not than to keep them that way.

There have been raids done on breeders in Victoria and if they are caught with dogs not on concrete and in more than lots of two there are screams for the breeder to loose their permits .

If we are against commercial breeding and we really are expecting to get something done to stop dogs suffering and still have some people left who breed dogs we have to narrow it down more first - so everyone who is calling for an end to puppy farming are all calling for the same thing - not some calling for an end to commercial breeding and others calling for an end to dogs being mistreated because clearly the way the laws are written dogs are mistreated when they sleep in houses with their families and not mistreated when they sleep in concrete stalls.

[Sheridan]

I thought it was quite good - pointing out that attitudes in the UK have changed, pets are rarely sold through pet shops and people get their dogs through shelters or breeders.

I would have liked to have seen more emphasis on the puppy farm connection though.

It is because the word puppy farm gets thrown around to much and it is hard for people to distinguish what a puppy farm is, they think of the crammed illegal mills that you see all over google, when in fact a puppy farm is a commercial breeding facility, but because some of these places seem so reputable they see them as breeders not farmers...... more effort needs to go into teaching people about what a farm really is

Agreed - but what a farm is according to who? You say its a commercial breeding facility but that's not the definition used by governments and many canine groups who have agreed that the definition of a puppy farmer is someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions. Once you begin to judge someone based on what appears to be their motivation eg breeding for profit you hit a whole new set of problems.

Here we go again.

This is the definition that the general public understands also.

According to whom?

C'mon - ask a person on the street if a puppy farm is a good or bad thing and what answer do you think you will get??

A question which doesn't provide the answer as to what the general public thinks a puppy farm is.

[Guest lavendergirl]

I thought it was quite good - pointing out that attitudes in the UK have changed, pets are rarely sold through pet shops and people get their dogs through shelters or breeders.

I would have liked to have seen more emphasis on the puppy farm connection though.

It is because the word puppy farm gets thrown around to much and it is hard for people to distinguish what a puppy farm is, they think of the crammed illegal mills that you see all over google, when in fact a puppy farm is a commercial breeding facility, but because some of these places seem so reputable they see them as breeders not farmers...... more effort needs to go into teaching people about what a farm really is

Agreed - but what a farm is according to who? You say its a commercial breeding facility but that's not the definition used by governments and many canine groups who have agreed that the definition of a puppy farmer is someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions. Once you begin to judge someone based on what appears to be their motivation eg breeding for profit you hit a whole new set of problems.

Here we go again.

This is the definition that the general public understands also.

According to whom?

C'mon - ask a person on the street if a puppy farm is a good or bad thing and what answer do you think you will get??

A question which doesn't provide the answer as to what the general public thinks a puppy farm is.

This is Steve's comment I was responding to:

"a puppy farmer is someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions"

I said that the general public thinks that is what a puppy farm is.

I don't know if you ever talk to the average person but there is a widespread belief that description is accurate.

[Steve]

Joe public and the government usually agree that this is what a puppy farmer is - there fore they write more and more stupid laws to try to stop people from breeding dogs regardless of how many they breed in substandard conditions - trouble is no breeder who loves dogs would ever give their regs a tick only those who have hundreds of dogs who see them as stock see their standards as a good thing. Its why pet shops say they dont buy from puppy farmers and why people including the PM's partner buy puppies from kennels which have hundreds of dogs and state they didnt buy from a puppy farmer .

Over and over and over again it rolls around no matter what YOU or I think a puppy farmer is it is not automatically someone who breeds dogs commercially in all circles that matter.

So O.K. If we are going to protest commercial breeders is that all of them including all the ones who the law says are doing the right thing? After all the reason the laws are in is because of the call for more laws to regulate breeders - it was animal rights groups who wanted this and all it did was run off small breeders who cant or wont comply with their version of standard conditions. Is that someone who breeds 5 litters a year etc.

You cant compare the UK with Australia - its a completely different cultural system with dog breeding. Breeders of pedigreed dogs over there don't need to be registered with the UK kennel club and they have problems with people breeding dogs and hoarding in filthy conditions just as we do.

This whole focus on dont buy puppies from pet shops because they come from puppy farmers wont fly here - ANKC breeders can and do sell puppies to pet shops and they say they only buy from breeders with permits [commercial breeders not puppy farmers]

Stopping them being sold in a pet shop wont stop them breeding them or selling them.

there are numerous great reasons for people not to buy from a pet shop and instead buy from a breeder and that's what we should be focusing on in my opinion.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Steve

[Sheridan]

According to whom?

C'mon - ask a person on the street if a puppy farm is a good or bad thing and what answer do you think you will get??

A question which doesn't provide the answer as to what the general public thinks a puppy farm is.

This is Steve's comment I was responding to:

"a puppy farmer is someone who keeps their dogs in substandard conditions"

I said that the general public thinks that is what a puppy farm is.

I don't know if you ever talk to the average person but there is a widespread belief that description is accurate.

And again, according to whom? People you speak to in the street? This directly contradicts my people in the street who simply consider a puppyfarm as a commercial enterprise. No conditions mentioned.

[Steve]

But with all the PR and media , Oscars Law etc if most people out in the public arena away from this type of place do think that puppy farmers are commercial breeders why are they still buying tens of thousands of puppies from them? What is a commercial breeder?

[Squidgy]

No offence to anyone who supports it but I think Oscars Flaw used to stand for something but now it is just full of crackpots who would abolish the breeding of any and every animal on the planet if they were allowed to.