Natural Rearing Border Collie Breeder?

[Clyde]

I have made my decisions after MANY MANY hours of careful research, and I am extremely confident that I am doing what is best for my dog, and any future dogs I will have. I much prefer to avoid drama and confrontation, I would just like a bit of help.

Thank you.

Do you have any links or resources which would point us in the direction of information advocating no puppy vaccinations? Like many here, I believe annual vaccinations are over the top and usually unnecessary, but those first two puppy vaccinations are vital. I would be interested in learning more from your research.

[skelp2]

Apple cider vinegar is a man made product, so therefore not a naturally occuring substance, and not exactly 'natural'. As to it's effectiveness against paralysis ticks, who knows?

I remember one of my sisters cursing over a plague of head lice at her kids' school. She tried all the so-called 'natural' cures and preventatives, including spraying vinegar on the kid's hair and hats. The only result was that they smelt like a fish & chip shop. They still got head lice with monotonous regularity. I would presume that ticks are just as impervious to smelly stuff as head lice are?

I guess a 'natural' death of a pup or dog, at a possibly young age, to a disease or nasty parasite like a tick, is preferable to using proven disease and parasite preventatives which are deemed 'unnatural', to some people?

We have been blessed by clever people who have invented methods to prevent horrible diseases, so why this swing against using these preventatives because they are not 'natural'? I just don't understand it.

[minimax]

My guess is the OP found http://www.naturalrearing.com/ and decided it was all fantastic and true and amazing.

Even all the "natural rearing" sites I've found say they vaccinate as required by law, but then don't continue on

Edit: (my *extensive* search was limited to two pages on google :p )

Edited September 17, 2012 by minimax

[Rebanne]

was it here on DOL, a few years ago now, where there was a thread with someone having the opposite trouble? They were buying a pup from someone who didn't believe in vaccinations but used the nosodes instead and they buyer was wanting the pup to have the puppy vaccinations at least? Buyer was quite happy to titre in future. Anyone else remember or did I dream it :laugh:

[espinay2]

Hi all,

I'm not sure if I've ever posted an intro on here or not, as I've only been lurking! Anyway, I'm Stef, I live in NSW near Port Macquarie. I have a beautiful RSPCA rescue named Dobby, who is half corgi, and I think half kelpie, but not sure. He will be 2 just before Christmas. I adopted him just before last Christmas. We are doing our first Obedience and Rally-O trial at the end of October, and will be starting Agility training in a few weeks hopefully. He's amazing =D

Anyway, I have started doing research for my next dog, for a variety of reasons. I want a second dog, for myself, and for Dobby. He LOVES every other dog he meets, and I have enough time that I would love a second dog to train and compete in Agility with. I am thinking it will be about two years from now when I am ready for a puppy.

The point of this is, I feed a Prey Model Raw diet, and I am anti-vaccinations, chemicals, etc. I am REALLY hoping to find a natural rearing, raw feeding breeder that does not vaccinate. Oh, and I want a Border Collie. Colour doesn't concern me at all, I just want my puppy to have the absolute best chance at having a long, healthy life. I am willing to wait to find the right breeder and the right puppy, but I figure it's not going to happen on its own, so I need to start looking, and I am not having any luck searching, so I thought I would post on here and see if anyone knows of any breeders that fit what I'm looking for.

Thanks in advance!

-Stef

Hi Stef,

In Australia you may be hard pressed to find a breeder that is 100% NR (I beleive there are some - yes well known long time kennels too - but none that I know of with border collies).

In the US yes, but not here (and no use importing as they will need to be vaccinated to get here).

You will get those that come close, but may have to accept a pup that has had initial vaccinations.

You are welcome to join my email list rawbreeder at Yahoogroups and post the question. There may be someone there who is or knows someone.

Or perhaps try the Au Natural K9s list

Folks, how about we stick to constructive stuff. The OP has made her own choices based on her own research and that needs to be respected.

Edited September 18, 2012 by espinay2

[LizT]

When I did my diploma of Naturophay back in the early 1990's I had to write a paper on "Vaccination". Many Naturopathic Practitioners advocate against vaccination and offer useless Homoepathic Vaccinations as an alternative. Many suggest vaccination is fine if their is no family history of bad reactions.

I could never in good concious EVER advise a client NOT to vaccinate their child. My own children are fully vaccinated.

If you buy a vaccinated puppy as it's owner it is then your choice and your responsiblility as to whether you continue the course of vaccination the breeder started. For various reasons over the years (one includes a tight arse father) I have owned dogs that have never been vaccinated. I have had vaccinated Pound dogs get ill with Destemper and non vaccinated dogs live long healthy lives. It is the luck of the draw. Today, as a person who partakes in Public dog activities I vaccinate my dogs, as a Registered Breeder I vaccinate my dogs.

Happy lurking.

[Greytmate]

Folks, how about we stick to constructive stuff. The OP has made her own choices based on her own research and that needs to be respected.

I respect those who research critically, being able to distinguish the difference between reliable research and harmful rubbish. Somebody mentioned peer-reviewed studies, which are a good place to start.

This person obviously doesn't. And although that might be because she doesn't know any better, it isn't worthy of any respect. In some jurisdictions her choice would be illegal as well as unethical.

Hopefully in between her insults she has read and learned something here, and we should be pleased that she wasn't given an open opportunity to further spread her harmful rubbish.

[dancinbcs]

[

Folks, how about we stick to constructive stuff. The OP has made her own choices based on her own research and that needs to be respected.

I believe it is constructive to advise her that what she is looking for does not exist to save her looking any further. The dog world is a very small place and all the reputable breeders know about each other, so I can assure her that she will not find a repuatable breeder of BCs that would supply a puppy as requested. So if she wants a healthy BC she will have to compromise on something.

[espinay2]

[

Folks, how about we stick to constructive stuff. The OP has made her own choices based on her own research and that needs to be respected.

I believe it is constructive to advise her that what she is looking for does not exist to save her looking any further. The dog world is a very small place and all the reputable breeders know about each other, so I can assure her that she will not find a repuatable breeder of BCs that would supply a puppy as requested. So if she wants a healthy BC she will have to compromise on something.

YES! Then THIS is the advice she needs. NOT a bashing from those that may personally disagree with her choices..

Perhaps someone can direct her here or privately to breeders who have views that lean towards more natural rearing (such as raw feeding and/or more minimal vacc protocols), even if they don't do 100% NR?

Edited September 18, 2012 by espinay2

[Jed]

I really don't want to get into a debate about vaccinations - I will say that I do not want to introduce any toxins into my dog, and I will not be vaccinating Dobby again (he was done before I adopted him, so I had no choice beforehand). If that keeps us from trialing, then I will do agility at home, and we will enjoy ourselves. Same goes for a new puppy. I believe that vaccines do FAR more harm than good, and that I have the resources to look after any issues naturally and holistically.

I understand and appreciate that many people do not agree with this, but I really am not looking to get into an argument about it.

As far as the person who asked what I do for fleas and ticks - We have ZERO flea problems, and I believe that is 100% due to Dobby's raw diet. Neighbours dogs have lots of fleas, and not a single one on my dog. As for ticks, I spray him with a 50/50 Apple Cider Vinegar/Water mix anytime I know he will be in areas that are likely to have ticks (mostly when we go do things with our cattle), and I check him multiple times a day for ticks. I found a couple on myself yesterday, but not a one on my boy. Again, I contribute that to the raw diet, and the spray.

If nobody has anything to add that will help me in my search, then I would appreciate it if they did not add anything. I have made my decisions after MANY MANY hours of careful research, and I am extremely confident that I am doing what is best for my dog, and any future dogs I will have. I much prefer to avoid drama and confrontation, I would just like a bit of help.

Thank you.

I know of a couple of registered breeders who do not vaccinate at all. They use holistic treatments instead. (Nosodes?). Neither of them has border collies.

I see your point of view, although I do not agree altogether with it. However, vaccines do a lot of damage. I don't think breeders who don't vaccinate particularly advertise the fact, so I suggest you ask around a bit. There are not a lot of breeders who use the forums on this site

[Libertybrook]

Well Stef,

at least have the guts to give us your name, so that as a BC breeder I NEVER sell you a puppy,

[Merrirose]

If you use a type of nobivac vaccination you can vac once at 10 weeks + which guarantees you full coverage 7 days from then. As far as I am aware this is the only vac that can cut through maternal antibodies. It is recommended that you then vac 12 months from there with the nobivac 3 year vac.

At least if you do just the one 10 week+ vac then you are covered while the dog builds an immune system.

I would prefer the health issues associated with a puppy vaccine vs the health issues associated with parvo.

[espinay2]

Well Stef,

at least have the guts to give us your name, so that as a BC breeder I NEVER sell you a puppy,

Maybe give yours. That way she knows not to contact you

[rebelsquest]

Espinay, the OP did receive some helpful responses, albeit there were some negative ones as well. However after she came back and said we were ALL brainwashed and narrow minded, I'd hazard a guess she's lost any respect or patience from most people. She can't really be surprised by that.

Edited September 18, 2012 by rebelsquest

[tdierikx]

Maybe the OP could visit a vet clinic when there is a dog there with Parvo? I'm sure she wouldn't ever want that to happen to one of her dogs... and Parvo isn't the kind of bug that can be eradicated by "natural therapies"...

Having personally seen pups with Parvo, and pups with Distemper, I certainly wouldn't be taking the chance with any pup I brought home.

And, yes - I've also seen pups with vaccinosis - however, the survival rate with vaccinosis is extremely high, whereas the survival rate for Parvo is miniscule.

I've seen pups die after being wormed too - because the worm burden was so great that the treatment caused too much shock for the pup's system to take.

There is a lot to be said for prophylactic treatments IMHO.

All that said, one doesn't need to be over-vigilant and vaccinate every year. Titre testing is affordable, and will show whether your pet needs a boost to it's immunities.

T.

[dancinbcs]

Maybe the OP could visit a vet clinic when there is a dog there with Parvo? I'm sure she wouldn't ever want that to happen to one of her dogs... and Parvo isn't the kind of bug that can be eradicated by "natural therapies"...

Having personally seen pups with Parvo, and pups with Distemper, I certainly wouldn't be taking the chance with any pup I brought home.

And, yes - I've also seen pups with vaccinosis - however, the survival rate with vaccinosis is extremely high, whereas the survival rate for Parvo is miniscule.

I've seen pups die after being wormed too - because the worm burden was so great that the treatment caused too much shock for the pup's system to take.

There is a lot to be said for prophylactic treatments IMHO.

All that said, one doesn't need to be over-vigilant and vaccinate every year. Titre testing is affordable, and will show whether your pet needs a boost to it's immunities.

T.

The only cases of so called "vaccinosis" I have ever heard of in Border Collies, turned out to be TNS puppies that were never going to survive anyway so the fact they became ill after the vaccine was irrelevant.

Edited September 18, 2012 by dancinbcs

[espinay2]

Espinay, the OP did receive some helpful responses, albeit there were some negative ones as well. However after she came back and said we were ALL brainwashed and narrow minded, I'd hazard a guess she's lost any respect or patience from most people. She can't really be surprised by that.

Yes, she has received some good replies, but frankly I am not surprised she lashed out based on some of the judging replies to her innocent request for information (which seems to be a common thing on this forum at times on a range of topics).

Remember I posted here too, so I am supposedly encompassed in that 'all'. I know though not to take it to heart.

IMO there is room for a range of viewpoints and the key is RESPECT for those that may hold differing opinions even if they are ones you would never hold yourself.

If a breeder doesn't like how someone is going to raise a pup it they don't have to sell a puppy to them. It is as easy as that.

PLENTY of prospective homes are given a no because philosophies on how a pup will be raised differ and this is not something new.

Though personally I think there are a lot worse homes a pup could end up in based on the info the OP has provided.

(and FWIW before anyone decides to call me a puppy killer I DO vaccinate - but having been involved and around the NR philosophy for many many years I respect those that take a different path to me)

Debate is good. Judgemental confrontation is not. We see enough of that in this world.

The OP has now recieved assistance and advice from some privately, so yes, I doubt she will be back.

JMOHP

Edited September 18, 2012 by espinay2

[megan_]

yeah, but you can't call people who vaccinate puppies close minded and unable to think for themselves and not expect to cop some flack.

[espinay2]

But muuum, she started it!

[RubyBlue]

But muuum, she started it!

Well actually....

I actually do believe in desexing, when necessary. (I have never had a dog that I haven't desexed). Obviously, I am not going to get any help on this forum. You all seem to be incredibly closed minded and brainwashed by the vets that tell you you need all of these things to keep your dogs healthy. Say whatever you like in response to this, I won't be coming back.Thank you all for your time.

You can't come on to a forum asking for help and when you get it and it conflicts with your own narrow opinion insult the people offering help and not expect backlash.