What To Feed Now?

[Stitch]

I really need some help from DOLers with experience with IBD to work out what I can feed my old girl now.

Recently she spent nearly a week at the vet hospital with an episode of haemorrhegic diahorrea/irritable bowel. I was extremely worried and thought I was going to lose her as she was vomiting and pooing blood but the vet specialists pulled her through even after she relapsed.

She has been home for about 3weeks now and is on Hills Z/D diet and eating well. She started off on the cans and is now eating 2 cups of Z/D dry per day. I have just started to mix Protexin in with it and it appears to be helping as she has put on weight and seems to be feeling much better however after each meal...she gets fed twice daily...she farts something fierce...and I mean stinky and her poos although formed, tend to be on the soft side and again very stinky!!

She was never able to cope with liver and I know Z/D uses liver as its protein source but in an altered form which makes it hypo allergenic.

So, here we are stuck on Z/D diet and not being sure what I can feed her in the future and if there is something better I could be offering her. The main worry was that she may now be sensitive to the protein source she was eating prior to the IBD attack. That protein source was chicken as I was cooking chicken, veges, pasta, etc. for her. I would not like to try to feed her chicken protein again or at least not just yet, but I am also fearful of the process of finding out what she can eat in case it brings on another attack.

Has anyone had any experience with 'what happens now'???

[AussieDog]

Hi Stitch

I'll be watching your thread with interest as my girl Molly has just been officially diagnosed with severe IBD. We have been throwing up blood on and off since Jan and then went to bloody poo's a month ago. My poor dog has had her stomach scoped, been on all types of medication and FINALLY i decided to switch vets and within the last three weeks had blood tests and an ultrasound to confirm the ibd.

My girl is on the RC Hyperallergenic and i'm also mixing in a small amount of the ZD tins. I've JUST in the last couple of days had to put her on soy yoghurt as well as she is ravanous due to the medication she is on. I have to slow her eating down. She gets half a cup to three quarters of a cup of RC 3-4 times a day

I go back to the vet in a weeks time to discuss elimination diets. Problem is my guys have been on a very varied diet - doesn't leave me much to try that she hasn't been on. Her poo's are back to normal and i've had no vomit so the RC is working but gee whiz at $200 (near) a bag i'm hoping i can find something else.

I don't understand the principles of an elimination diet. The vet told me you can't feed her anything she has already eaten - but surely not EVERYTHING i've ever fed her made her sick? Damn dog.

Good luck.

[Stitch]

Unfortunately it is impossible to say what agrees with them unless you do the elimination diet...and I believe what you are eliminating is the protein source.

Apparently they can be going along fine and then if they have a bout of IBD they can then become sensitive to the protein source that they were OK with previously. I don't know why that is but I can relate it to myself....if I have a gastric upset I find I can't eat the food I ate just before I got sick for a while.....weird!!

The Hills Z/D is about $55 for a 3kg bag and Hills told me it didn't matter whether I fed the cans or the dry. At least with the dry they can chew it and that helps to make them feel they are actually eating something. The canned food just gets hoovered down and I object to feeding something which has water as its first ingredient.

I wonder if there is an elimination diet that has been already prepared available for dogs?

[AussieDog]

I only add the cans again to try and slow my dog down. She also eats out of a go slow bowl. She is currently on a high dose of anti inflams which makes her eat like mad and drink liters of water a day. Once she settles I may stop with the cans. It smells pretty bad and is very wet.

Molly is a blue heeler so I got the 15kg bag of RC hence the price.

Thanks for clarifying the protein part.

Are you going back to the vet to discuss the next step? I'll let you know what mine says when I go back.

I'm glad I know what was making her sick but never thought treating it would be so stressful.

[Stitch]

I am going to try to phone the vet and ask what is the next step as far as the diet is concerned. That will give my bank account some time to recover!!! :laugh:

Apparently they can have Z/D diet for as long as you want to feed it to them as it is a complete diet but I would like to try to get rid of my girls farts which are silent but deadly!!! so that will mean trying to fine tune the diet.

I believe that what set the whole episode off was Omega 3/6 oil added to her dinner so that's off her menu now but so is the chicken too.

The specialist vet said that the term IBD covers a range of possible illnesses/problems and the only way to get an exact diagnosis was to get a biopsy under general anaesthetic.....we are not up to the stage yet!!

ETA: I look forward to hearing what your vet has to say. :)

Edited September 16, 2012 by Stitch

[Guest Augustine The Boxer]

Have you considered trying fresh vegan food? It's better than anything in a can in comparison, especially for dogs allergic to meat protein.

[Stitch]

Yes I did consider that but when I tried to look at Augustines website, and in particular the recipes, the pages came up with errors multiple times and wouldn't let me scroll down, except for the shop....which wasn't any use as I wasn't going to buy a product I knew nothing about.

Can you give me any recipes?

[Guest Augustine The Boxer]

Hi Stitch,

Apologies for that, the errors appear because the site was created on software version that is more current than some browsers. Wish I knew that before they produced the site for us and we are working towards a solution. Updating your web browser / java will fix the problem.

I didn't mean necessarily our food either but I thought it was worth asking the question. The more people I interact with the more cases I hear of dogs with dietary issues (many times related to meat protein), and I can say with absolute certainty that a good fresh unprocessed vegan diet is much better for dogs than anything out of a can.

I'd be more than happy to send you our most up to date recipes if you PM your e-mail address.

[Stitch]

That would be great Augustine, I would love to see some recipes. I find it difficult too when all my other dogs are getting their 'going to bed' dog biscuit and my poor old girl has to go without as I don't know if she can have a biscuit or not.

[Stitch]

Thanks Augustine for the recipe.

One thing that does concern me is the addition of coconut oil.

I know my girl has problems with fat of any kind and I suspect that oil may also be a problem.

Not many places in nature that dogs could get oil especially coconut oil.

[Guest Augustine The Boxer]

I can see why this would concern you and while I do try to stick to things that are found in nature, I also like to add beneficial things to doggy diets that would not normally be accessible.

Initially I too was concerned about coconut oil but after researching and trying it on many dogs I found it to be beneficial. There will always be exceptions with any ingredient (hoping your dog isn't one of them) but fat coming from a vegan source has many benefits that meat does not (especially with the quality of many of the meats out there). Coconut oil in my eyes is the healthiest oil on the planet.

It can't hurt to try and see for yourself :)

I know you said you couldn't scroll down on our website so here is a copy and paste of the info we have about organic virgin cold-pressed coconut oil:

Vitamins: Choline, Tocopherol (E), and K.

Minerals: Iron (Fe).

Essential Fatty Acids: Omega 6.

Other Nutrients: Fibre and Medium Chain Triglycerides (MCT's).

Virgin Coconut Oil is the richest natural source of Medium Chain Triglycerides. It reduces or eliminates odour and bad breath in dogs, and has been known to clears up skin conditions such as eczema, flea allergies, contact dermatitis, itchy skin. It also makes coats become sleek and glossy, helps reduce weight, increases energy, improves digestion, may help with arthritis or ligament problems and can also be applied topically to cuts, wounds, infected ears, bites and stings.

Only small amounts of vitamins (E & K) and minerals are present in coconut oil. The only significant mineral in coconut oil is iron.

Choline is one of the most abundant nutrients in coconut oil. Choline is indicated as part of the therapy for dogs and cats with seizures (epilepsy). Choline appears to be effective in treating small animal cognitive disorders (cognitive dysfunction, "doggy and kitty Alzheimer’s"). Although research studies suggest it is only moderately effective, clinical experience suggests that when used in older pets, it may actually prevent clinical signs of cognitive disorder. Choline may help some pets with urinary incontinence, especially if the incontinence is part of the cognitive disorder syndrome.

Virgin Cold Pressed Coconut Oil is not the kind of fat that the body stores because it is predominantly made up of medium chain fatty acids. They go straight to the liver and get converted into energy. The more energy your dog has, the more it exercises, the more it exercises, the leaner it stays, the leaner it stays, the less chance of obesity related diseases.

For a more detailed explanation please visit:

www.coconutresearchcenter.org/article10612.htm

www.cocotherapy.com/products_coconutoil.htm

[Erny]

Some will have read on my own thread regarding my own dog that I am trialling Augustine's SuperFood. In short, whilst the outcome of the "trial" is not completely conclusive as yet, I have found that Mandela's poop is the best it has ever been on raw meat AND it is the first time since I can recall where he is not farting and the poop does not stink. Those two things alone tell me that something right is happening as surely poop is a reflection of the health of the bowel/intestine, at least to a large extent ???

I am not doing the Vegan diet at this stage. I'm saving that for a "if I have to", preferring at this point to mix with roo mince.

Stitch - Mandela doesn't seem to cope with fatty food either. I'm no Vet but from things I've read, Coconut Oil is one of those "good" fats and I can tell you that even before Augustine's SuperFood diet I added Coconut Oil to Mandela's food with only improved/good results.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Erny

[Stitch]

Erny, what concerns me is that this dog was on BARF for many years when she was younger as that is what I prefer to feed, so I am definitely sold on the benefits of feeding raw ie small poos, no farts, etc. However, during that time, in my ignorance, I didn't pick up the signs that the IBD was happening to her as I have never had a dog with this problem and none of my others have this problem. She would vomit every now and then and also must have had pains in her stomach as she didn't like to be touched there....but other than that she was the picture of good health and I just put it down to her being the princess that she is. This happened on and off for quite a while with me taking her to the vet and the vet at that time, not picking up that she had IBD.

She then started to be ultra sensitive to the liver treats that she and all my others had received for years so after a particularly nasty bout of diahorrea I finally put two and two together and after visiting the vet yet again switched her over onto Hills I/D and then onto Hills Sensitive Stomach. Problem solved, no stomach sensitivity, no vomiting or diahorrea. She was on that for quite a few years.

About 6 months ago I decided to cook chicken and rice for her as she started to look skinny and her coat was very dull. She loved it and put on weight and was very happy until I put a teaspoon full of flaxseed oil (good quality refrigerated etc.) in her meal for nights.

Thats when she got this last terrible bout of bloody diahorrea, bloody vomiting, she was very sick and I thought I was gong to lose her. The specialist internal med. vet said was IBD. He explained that IBD is really a generic name for a whole list of possible causes....and all I can put it down to that I did differently was the oil.

Now it may be that she can tolerate another variety of oil but you can see why I am very reluctant to give her oil again. In fact I am frightened to change her diet at all but I can see (and smell) that the Z/D isn't a perfect fit but then maybe it's as good as it gets???

[JulesP]

If you google flaxseed allergy you will see that bloody diarrhea is listed as a symptom. It also goes off quite easily. Have had a nasty personal experience with that!!!

What is the vet saying about diet?

[Stitch]

Yes I noted that after the event...however the flaxseed oil was freshly bought, kept refridgerated, complied with all the guidelines for keeping it in good condition and none of my other dogs had any reaction to it being added to their meals at all and they were having it for way longer than my girl did. I presume it is because she has the prior IBD condition.

Subsequently I have tossed the flaxseed oil because my thinking was that if it caused a reaction in a dog that admittedly had a gut problem then it had the propensity to disagree even mildly with a normal dog and am now adding Megaderm to everyone elses meals. I am very reluctant to add oil now of any sort to my old girls diet though.

I might add that flaxseed oil came very highly recommended from several people that had been using it for years for their dogs with no ill effects.....I don't know why though when I know now it is such an unstable oil.

[megan_]

I'm allergic to many oils - it doesn't matter how fresh they are or how they are stored. Some dogs are deathly allergic to fish oil, even though it is good for the vast majority of dogs.

You could try the diet without the coconut oil, stabilise her and then add it down the track if you choose?

If she has IBD I wouldn't feed her any bones.

[Stitch]

Yes Megan that is what I am thinking. She hasn't had bones of any kind for years now.

That brings me back to working out what protein source I use.

I am viewing chicken which suspicion at the moment, beef may be OK, lamb may be problematical, fish is not easy to come by and is rather expensive.....what else is there....kangaroo, not sure how that would go???

[megan_]

Kangaroo is pretty lean, so it might be a good starting point. Note: I haz no animal nutrition qualifications.

I feed my guys kangaroo but due to parasites I only feed by dogs human grade meat, so it can get pretty expensive.

[Guest Augustine The Boxer]

That's the first dog I've heard of with an allergy to flax and it just goes to show any dog can be allergic anything. The side effects sound terrible, poor thing.

Shame you had to learn that the hard way and it is definitely a very rare allergy.

On a side note for those interested (and not saying this would give you a different result to the oil), I have never used flaxseed oil, only flaxseed meal and there was another thread about it recently, if I remember correctly I posted the benefits over oil. Flaxseed meal is much much healthier and contains more nutrients (turning it into oil is an additional process which expels valuable nutrients). I think that the marketing behind oil has been better hence why most people use oil over meal.

[Stitch]

That's the thing...it may not be an allergic reaction to flaxseed oil, however she only had it 3 times on her evening meal before this last episode started, so it has to be suspected.

I will make a booking with the internal medicine specialist vet next week and see what he has to say about her ongoing diet. At least it may give me a direction to head in. Perhaps he has an elimination diet I can follow and maybe he can give me a list of foods to avoid. Poor girl, she doesn't understand why she can't have the nice real food like she did before, and not even a 'going to bed' biscuit!!!