Anxious Walker

[Aidan3]

Really? That has not been my experience. You have to set them up for success, though.

You can't always do that in real life, a lot of the time the actions of others are out of your hands.

Sure. Train first, proof later. This is not a problem I encounter.

[Nekhbet]

Sure. Train first, proof later. This is not a problem I encounter.

Why not do both at the same time if you have the opportunity. Inbuild a proofing mechanism where the dog actively seeks your attention over reacting in times of stress, right from the start. Two birds, one stone. Practice the complete picture from the very start so the dog has that mental safety net and you find they learn faster as well. I also find regression rates or lack of coping in new environments low because they're put in that realistic environment from the get go and taught what to do start to finish. This isn't trick training this is behavior, and training the owners as much as the dogs is another part of making the whole thing work. Owners need proofing too :laugh:

[CHA]

I too have a dog with a very similar problem to yours. We got her from the pound and have had her for about 6 weeks now. She is very aggressive/reactive on walks when she sees another dog and we have realised that she is basically just plain scared.

I was given some good advice from the lovely people on DOL and have let her settle into our home routine before taking her on walks. We've let her get used to us and have got down the house training, and the sit, stay, wait, heel etc. around the house and garden.

He's just new to you, I'm sure your fellow will come round, just take your time and enjoy him.

Good Luck.

[corvus]

Actually, trick training sets you up with all the skills you need. The only difference between 'trick training' and 'behaviour modification' is you might have to pay more attention to emotional state and lean more on classical conditioning in the latter. And behaviour modification can get delightfully complex if you have to figure out the balance of reinforcers and punishers maintaining a behaviour.

'Non-compliance' is not a behaviour, therefore, you can't punish it. The dog is doing something when they didn't do what you asked them to, and that's what you are punishing. You may also be working a lot in classical conditioning if the dog is anxious, which means you are probably going to make them more anxious about whatever they were aware of when you punished them. I don't bother correcting non-compliance for a bunch of reasons. Apart from the fact it's just not necessary if you are capable of proofing by setting the dog up to succeed, it's flashing the wrong currency. Punishment suppresses behaviour and you just asked for the dog to perform a behaviour. What do you want? More behaviour or less?? These things have knock-on effects beyond the specific behaviour they act on.

A strong reinforcement history with your dog in a broad range of situations is phenomenally useful and the single best thing anyone with a reactive dog can do. My dogs have never been 'proofed' with punishment and yet are impressively attentive in most stressful situations. One of them is drivey, crazy smart, a touch reactive, and for the first 6 months of his life had a "Why should I?" attitude to everything we asked of him. I've had him turn around and run 10m back to me at the dog park to start a game of LAT with me because he saw something he really wasn't cool with. I didn't cue anything and gave him no signals. Hey, it's just a trick. But it sure is useful when the environment isn't cooperating with you.

It's worth mentioning that a lot of distance-increasing behaviour looks a hell of a lot like chasing or approach behaviour. If you mistake what your dog actually wants you can make a real mess of it. And it's hard to tell, even if you know what you're looking for. I use BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Therapy) as a bit of a diagnosis tool. It's well worth reading up on.

[Nachi]

Thanks for all your replies again.

I'd like to give an update, though to be honest I'm feeling a little frustrated.

I have not been walking him this week and just been training him in the yard. We can do sit, stay, come, go, and lay down etc, he's pretty good.

Today I walked him using the front-clip harness. I bought two of these after reaising hes nowhere near the 'meduim' size recommended for border collies, he definatley larger and so it wont fit. The large size, is a tad loose at the front, not hanging or droopy looking but I could fit more than two fingers under for sure. That's the most it tightens to. I can't say the harness worked for his pulling much at all, I realise it has to be a good fit in order to work, is this just a tad too lose do you think? It really isn't much, but its not working effectively, perhaps it really does need to be much tighter?

Regardless he is still not a 'bad' puller.

I took him for a short walk today, not a very successful one in my opinion. He was whining and over-excited from the start but that's not unusual. I didn't want to leave yet if hes like that, perhaps wait till he settles in a few min, then try again, but for my own (unrelated) reasons I left then.

He was pretty much barking once we got to the bottom of the driveway, why?

He was anxious, over-excited, and then the dogs. I'm at the end of a no through road, there's no escaping these backyard dogs. Previous walks, I've found I can get him past them without toomuch trouble.

He was already barking for reasons I don't really understand so I decided to just run past these dogs quickly. At least he doesn't try to pull towards them, he just barks since he can only see them at one gate.

Then there were people, he barked at them, but didn't pull towards. Here I am just walking a dog that's just barking seemingly at nothing.

At the top of the street I just stopped with him, because at the top there is an oval, and often dogs. I'm feeling rather trapped with the triggers. If he stopped barking for a while, calmed down for a bit, I gave him a treat, told him how good he was.

He was calming down a bit there so it was good, I could tell he was frustrated he couldn't go walking though, so we did some circles round the road there etc. I could see some people then coming down from the oval so it was time to go, more barking past the yard dogs.

It's a good thing I had left then because as we returned home, closed the gate, I saw those people had come up to the end of the road with a large dog. I'm not sure if he saw them, or if he didn't care because he was now in the yard but I gave him some treats, praised him, because he didn't react.

I don't understand why he was so much worse today, any insights a handy. I discovered apparently my mother and father both walked him while I was at work on separate occasions though. It's not that I'd blame them if anything they did resulted in this (I'm his prominent walker, so issues should really be with how I'm handling it). I don't know how those went other than 'he barks', but my father believes in poping his collar and 'NO!'. I think part of why I'm frustrated is because we have different views on the situation. If it doesn't go well with me, I feel foolish.

I'm considering a dog trainer/behaviorist to get a clearer picture and understanding of whats going on. Again he hasn't been here long, but he seems to have no trouble or worries around the house, it's like he's always been here, but I don't want his leash-reactivity to set in too long. Looking back on his first walk I'm surprised how little he reacted then those the several small dogs we saw.

I've also been reading many articles online and I'm waiting on a thundershirt too.

edit: For clarity, I don't think his barks are of aggression. He's always seemed frustrated and over-excited to me.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Nachi

[persephone]

I'm considering a dog trainer/behaviorist to get a clearer picture and understanding of whats going on. Again he hasn't been here long, but he seems to have no trouble or worries around the house, it's like he's always been here, but I don't want his leash-reactivity to set in too long. Looking back on his first walk I'm surprised how little he reacted then those the several small dogs we saw.

that sounds a really good plan!

the money you are spending on tools etc , you could have paid for a consult :)

No use using this ,that, & The other until you know exactly what his problem is , IMO.

I'm sure if you ask on here someone will recommend someone for you to talk with...someone recommended by word of mouth :)

[Nekhbet]

What are you doing to redirect his attention to you. You are totally right, he is anxious and ready to go because he is getting his rewards from the outside world, you dont have anything to offer him except to be the one trying to hold him back (thats what his mind sees anyway)

What does he go bananas over? Ball? Tug? Cheese? Kabana? Smoked Salmon? Whatever it is, you reserve that as a super special thing he gets when he focus's on you. So you're ready for a walk, start in the drive way. Natural focus should be rewarded all the time, every time he looks at you praise, extended look at you give him a reward as a jackpot bonus. Constant trickling of treats I dont do, I would rather the dog work hard to get that super special one then just the same reward for whatever level of behavior.

Start your walk, when he pulls ahead turn around, call him, engage him and reward for focus. Border collies are dynamic dogs, but they can also be tenacious when in drive. He'll want to bark but in fact take advantage of his excitement and harness it to be directed towards you. Your value increases, other things decrease, bingo bango suddenly you're the best thing since sliced bread. Takes a little time but be mindful of the speed these dogs brains work at. If you're one step behind they'll leave you behind very easily!

[chuckandsteve]

My foster has fear issues with other dogs.

A thunder shirt has bought him down to a level were I can get some focus to work with him and he is very good at group class now. Off lead we haven't had a problem with other dogs but it has always been very controlled intros. He however really doesn't like off lead dogs when he is on lead so he was quite bad even with the thunder shirt.

The thunder shirts work on about 80% of dogs so dont know if it would help you but for me, it has made his fear lower to a point I can work with

[BC Crazy]

Anothet vote for the Thunder Shirt. Works wonders on my reactive/anxious girl as long as I put it on before she has become nervous. Amazing results. Lessons her stress levels dramatically on most occassions :)

Edited September 25, 2012 by BC Crazy

[BC Crazy]

What are you doing to redirect his attention to you. You are totally right, he is anxious and ready to go because he is getting his rewards from the outside world, you dont have anything to offer him except to be the one trying to hold him back (thats what his mind sees anyway)

What does he go bananas over? Ball? Tug? Cheese? Kabana? Smoked Salmon? Whatever it is, you reserve that as a super special thing he gets when he focus's on you. So you're ready for a walk, start in the drive way. Natural focus should be rewarded all the time, every time he looks at you praise, extended look at you give him a reward as a jackpot bonus. Constant trickling of treats I dont do, I would rather the dog work hard to get that super special one then just the same reward for whatever level of behavior.

Start your walk, when he pulls ahead turn around, call him, engage him and reward for focus. Border collies are dynamic dogs, but they can also be tenacious when in drive. He'll want to bark but in fact take advantage of his excitement and harness it to be directed towards you. Your value increases, other things decrease, bingo bango suddenly you're the best thing since sliced bread. Takes a little time but be mindful of the speed these dogs brains work at. If you're one step behind they'll leave you behind very easily!

Have been following this thread closely. So glad I read your post Nekhbet. I was wondering if I was doing the right thing when my girl sees another girl that I know she reacts to.

I found myself standing there at the end of the leash while Stella went off her nut,lunging & barking etc doing nothing, being like a tree if I hadn't seen her "enermy" approaching. If I do

we usually play LAT with her favourite food,(which is anything) but sometimes her emotional state escalates so quickly that food just doesn't cut it. So I get out her ball & just hold it in front of me.I then have total silence &

I have her totally focusing on that ball in a sit position, facing me, back to the other dog, till the dog has walked out of my sight. I let Stella off lead & throw her ball for a game of fetch for a reward,

then back on her lead. It seems to be working a treat for us. But I must stay ONE step ahead of her at all times otherwise the moment is lost & the commotion begins

Stella is very obedient on lead usually, doesn't pull at all & does everything that is asked of her, sits at kerb e.t.c. Also very good with most approaching things, bikes, scooters e.t.c but if a female

canine of similar size rushes at her or runs past she will become very reactive. Lunging, barking & growling. I am continuing to use these methods in the hope of changing this unwanted behaviour.

Edited September 26, 2012 by BC Crazy

[Nekhbet]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmUi7qFW4uY

Look at this example. Now this has real world applications with pet dogs too. Watch what the handler does - not much, hang onto the lead and yes he's praising the dog because he wants the dog to continue, but he does nothing to redirect or discourage the dog from reacting to the decoy.

Now you have a reactive dog. You stop, do nothing and just hang on. What will happen in your dogs mind? Nothing is stopping or changing the behavior hence it runs an extremely high risk of reinforcing itself. If you don't see the dog and wait her out you are teaching her a cue - if you do not redirect her before the stimulus comes within critical distance, GO FOR YOUR LIFE! Look at the dog in the video, it's finding the fact it can act like a lunatic rewarding and hence keeps going, even when the decoy runs off. Wow what fun, hey you do it again! You find dogs like yours can be scanning and looking out for a reason to react because they either 1) find it so great they want to do it again or 2) feel the need they have to because you don't step in to show them it's not necessary.

Why don't you turn her around, walk her away and regain focus when she quietens down? Depends what is causing the reaction but corrective equipment can be applied to diminish the drive and show her the behavior is unwanted. You should be reinforcing calm behavior throughout the whole walk, another thing to consider is your dogs body language... is she actually calm or is she just bottling, waiting to explode? Edited September 26, 2012 by Nekhbet

[BC Crazy]

Watched the link you provided nekhbet & thanks for providing it. Point taken. The only time I stand still & just hold the leash is if I haven't seen Stella's "enermy" approaching & all of a sudden she is right there. On our walks Stella seems calm & quite relaxed. Enjoys interaction with all people/children & most other dogs. It is just this certain few that seem to push her buttons. We have successfully learn't to not react to mowers, whippersnippers & scooters 99% of the time while out walking. Which I am very pleased with. As she was very reactive to those when she was younger. Stella is a very anxious dog at home. Which is very confusing to me as this is where she is safest. She runs frantic round the yard at the slightest sound. A man sneezed outside 2 doors up & she went berserk , runs around the yard barking & whinning about 3 weeks ago & it took hours for her to calm herself down. She would not sleep all day either, not even lie down. That was when I decided to see vet with her. So I now have had her on Endep for 3 weeks as my vet recommended for her anxious behaviour. I can see improvement in Stella at home. She is alot calmer & seems alot more at ease with herself, not so tormented which I am so pleased about.She is not drowsy or anything but she does get a little arvo nap now after our mornings walk. So will continue with the meds & LAT work with these certain couple of "enermy" dogs, hopefully we can conquer this reactivness.

Just wanted to edit to say sorry to hachi, don't mean to hijack your thread.

Edited September 27, 2012 by BC Crazy

[hankdog]

I also adopted a reactive dog and best advice is get a good behaviorist. You get what you pay for and not all dog trainers will necessarily have experience with reactive dogs, the first one I saw advised me to either PTA or not walk him. If you give an indication of where you live people will give you names of behaviorists in your area.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My dog - just shuts down in a slip collar - same as Weasels - if she gets too excited - she just leans into it. But mostly she has a nasty way of ignoring something until the very last minute and then decides it's "wrong" and lunges at it - full blast - like the GSD in Nekhbet's picture. The front attach harness turns her around - facing me not the target of her "objection". And yes they do have to be a good fit (Nachi, what sort did you get, did you measure around the dog's chest?)

I would not like to think what a slip collar would do to her in this situation (or worse, a head halter) She will do this lunge thing mostly for things she deems as "wrong" but also for the treat lady who dishes out large amounts of yummy food for any dog that lines up. So it's for things she wants to chase (well secured beach umbrellas?) - but for different reasons.

I've got the treat lady trained to give the treats she wants my dog to have - to me instead but that only works if I see her first and get my dog on lead before my dog sees her.

A lot of the LAT training requires that you be a sufficient distance from whatever the distraction is that the dog can still pay attention. I find the harness gives me leverage over the dog in the same way as a wheel barrow gives you leverage on a heavy load - makes getting the required distance much easier.

I still don't know what to do about the random "wrong thing" though eg 1000 joggers are ok, she ignores them, jogger 1001 is not ok and she chases and barks. So I have to be vigilant (short lead) about all joggers, bikes, people in wheel chairs, prams, people with umbrellas, people walking towards me on the footpath etc. It's quite frustrating for both of us. And I cannot successfully predict which thing in 1000 that she normally ignores that she is going to chase this time. It's like an intermittant problem in a computer or car - won't happen in front of professional help.

[Nachi]

That's fine BC Crazy, everything in this topic has been helpful and I'm glad I'm not having trouble with reactivity alone.

Nekhbet: He loves his food for sure, little interest in toys. Currently I'm using cutting schmacko strips into reward sizes. I've been looking around for some more variation in treats.

I've been able to get his attention a little more outside, so I'm more hopeful with how things are going at the moment. I'm just fearing another 'surprise dog' doesn't come around at this point.

Thanks again for your posts in this topic, it's been very insightful.

Hankdog: Thanks! Yes I've been a bit worried about the experience and quality of advice some trainers might have. I'm in the outer west of Sydney, lower Blue Mountains.

Mrs Rusty Bucket: I've got the Gentle Leader Easy Walk harness in both medium and large sizes. I actually didn't measure his chest, which is rather silly of me I know. He's overweight so I hope he'll be losing some of that. I need to have another try at it I think, and see how the fit actually is on him =)

Thanks for all the replies as usual =)

I'm yet to take him out today, so I'll see how we go again.

On another note, I was very shocked he wasn't bothered by the thunderstorm we had yesterday! From his leash anxiety and excitement, I was sure he'd react.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Nachi

[corvus]

I think there is some confusion about the role arousal and emotional state play in the effectiveness of operant conditioning... And I just almost stated the title of a paper I'm submitting next week if the reviewer it's with gets the final check done. I spent about the last year thinking about this and working out conceptual models of it. The thing is, having a good handle on how to reinforce or punish behaviour is not so useful if arousal and emotional state have got the reigns rather than operant conditioning. You've got to remember that most reactive behaviour is distance increasing behaviour. In other words, the dog wants the trigger to go away. It's actually quite difficult to positively reinforce distance increasing behaviour. Think about a human example. Does screaming at someone to get that freaking spider away from your face make you feel good? Will popping a chocolate in your mouth between screams make you scream more? This stuff is complicated. You really need to understand both the operant conditioning side and the emotional/arousal state side simultaneously to properly identify what the triggers are and why the dog is behaving the way they are. If you aren't confident you can figure that out on your own, I think you should try to find a professional who can do it. Just to be safe. These things can get worse if they are not well understood.

[Weasels]

to the last 2 posts :) I feel very fortunate to have found a trainer that understood all the above. From having very trainable and keen dogs I was all ready to put in a 'training' solution, but the person I was working with insisted on doing counter-conditioning first where we asked nothing of Weez except to eat a bunch of food as the bike got closer and closer. He 'got' the game quickly so we just kept tightening the criteria a bit at a time and it worked so well.

One of the few clues I had that his reactivity was distance-increasing (at the beginning) was that he was leaning back into his hind legs while he was barking rather than forward aggressively. Fortunately I knew his general temperament and had a fair idea of what he found scary which helped too. As his training progressed more signed of fear emerged as he quitened down.

I get really worried when I hear suggestions of using corrections/aversives on dogs that may have fear-based behaviour IMHO it's a really important thing to know.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Weasels

[Nekhbet]

Nekhbet: He loves his food for sure, little interest in toys. Currently I'm using cutting schmacko strips into reward sizes. I've been looking around for some more variation in treats.

I've been able to get his attention a little more outside, so I'm more hopeful with how things are going at the moment. I'm just fearing another 'surprise dog' doesn't come around at this point.

Ooooh schmackos? nooo wheres the deli spread of cheese, kabana, hot dog etc fresh foods are ALWAYS better, schmackos I find loose their shine out in public unless the dog is a total pig or starving :laugh:

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

My dog likes schmackos - for the novelty value.

Today we went nuts for kitten cheese balls - whoda thought.

Other cheap dog treats - promite on toast - cut the toast in half, fold over then cut into chewed fingernail sized pieces, so the spread is on the inside and bread on the outside.

bacon toast, the off cuts from ham in sandwiches, the scraps from the roast chicken - per kilo - roast chicken or cooked steak is way cheaper than liver treats ($60/kg aka $6 for 100g) tho my dog puts high novelty value on liver treats. And for some reason her dinner kibble in someone else's hands - is an uber treat but when I've got it, nothing special.

[corvus]

And for some reason her dinner kibble in someone else's hands - is an uber treat but when I've got it, nothing special.

The known versus the unknown? :) Sounds like you have an optimistic dog. One of my dogs seems to assume that the unknown treat from a stranger is probably better than what he knows I have. It almost never is because I carry some pretty good treats, but he is very optimistic.

I had a very, very picky eater here for a week who had been randomly punished for taking food so was very nervous about treats and generally wouldn't take them. He would sit for a tiny piece of boiled lamb heart, though. The boiled lamb heart speaks to most dogs. ;) I view it as a foot in the door. By the end of the week our picky eater would take any treat in the house and was even starting to look for opportunities to earn treats.