Anxious Walker

[Nachi]

Hello,

First of all, it has been less then a week since I've adopted this dog (middle aged BC X) so it's early days. Perhaps I am expecting too much at this point, but I would like some opinions on training methods.

I'm working on training him to walk loose leash. Our first walk, he was moderately pulling, he barked at some small dogs but was not too difficult to move on.

I took him on another walk that day, and he got upset, barked and yelped over a closer encounter with two dogs, he pulled harder on the way back.

The next day I tried some training with him in the yard, he responds very well to treats. We learnt some basics, sit, stay, come, and then some loose leash walking around the yard using 'close' for a command. He did well with it.

His next walk was much better after that, I aimed to leave the gate door first, acted confident etc. He was still pulling too much on the collar, but not enough for me to be feeling it, but still an improvement. I only took him around the street back and forth, I had another walk similar too this like this.

Today was more of a nightmare day where I was unsure what I should be doing in such a situation.

He's always too anxious/excited during walks which definatley lowers his response to me. Since he is a rescue dog I'm not sure if he's use to walking, or it's its simply the new environment making him anxious.

I sat him down just in front of my property before walking hoping he would calm down some amount and then we went for a walk.

We just walked the street and to the other side of the road is a park where a dog was running with it's owner, he barked and yelped loudly, started pulling badly and wouldn't pay me any notice. I tried just moving forward but his pulling was terrible, I tried changing direction but he wouldn't respond, I yelled 'no' at his barking and then decided we just wouldn't move at all until he calmed down.

He was still quite anxious but I walked him to the middle of the park once the dog was gone and sat him down again since he continued to bark. There wasn't anything to bark at, but he was clearly very anxious still.

I stood there with him for perhaps half an hour, I said 'no' loudly whenever he tried barking again, but I'm worried my shouting might increase his overall anxiety?

We finally went home, he was still pulling but at this point it looks like I should be working more on his anxiety walking rather than loose leash.

I'm a novice to this, and like I said it's really early days, but is anything I'm doing likely to make it worse for him? I don't want to be starting off on the wrong foot here. I'm guessing expose will help, he walks the street much better than more unfamiliar places. But once he gets upset over a dog, I'm really not sure what to do.

Any suggestions or opinions are greatly appreciated.

[Tassie]

Just a quick response. As you've noted, you may need to give him a little more time - but having said that, getting him into good habits now is good.

I guess the first thing I would be doing is getting a front clip harness - like the Gentle Leader Easywalk, or the sensible, or the Harmonee - and I think Black Dog makes one too. The idea of these is that the leash clips on in front of the dog's chest (some have a double ended arrangemnet with a clip on to the collar as well.

The idea of this is that if the dog pulls, he will b pulled around towards you - makes it easier for you to do the change of direction thing - which is a great technique, I think.

I don't know if you've had BCs before - but a couple of things to note - they are very motion sensitive - so very oriented to and interested in moving objects - runners, other dogs, cars etc. etc. They can also be frustration barkers.

The one thing you've been doing that I would really disagree with is the "yelling" no at him when he's barking - in the first place, he's over threshold at that point, and can't really pay attention to you - and in the second place, you're not really giving him meaningful information or direction - to his mind you're joining in the barking.

In that sort of situation, being stationary, or trying to et him to sit, is making it very hard for him - you really need to be keeping him moving - preferaably away from the 'target' - hence the front clip harness to allow that to happen.

As far as possible in the next couple of weeks, I'd be aiming for frequent short, successful walks, in areas with minimal triggers for him. Lots of changes of direction while he's under threshold should help him cue in to you, and he should be aable to take treats or respond to a toy at that stage.

I would also be doing lots of little bits of trick training, basic obedience - in very short happy sessions with lots of treats and/or toy rewards. This should help him to build a trusting and happy relationship with you.

Not sure if all that makes sense - hopefully others will be along soon.

[Nachi]

Just a quick response. As you've noted, you may need to give him a little more time - but having said that, getting him into good habits now is good.

I guess the first thing I would be doing is getting a front clip harness - like the Gentle Leader Easywalk, or the sensible, or the Harmonee - and I think Black Dog makes one too. The idea of these is that the leash clips on in front of the dog's chest (some have a double ended arrangemnet with a clip on to the collar as well.

The idea of this is that if the dog pulls, he will b pulled around towards you - makes it easier for you to do the change of direction thing - which is a great technique, I think.

I don't know if you've had BCs before - but a couple of things to note - they are very motion sensitive - so very oriented to and interested in moving objects - runners, other dogs, cars etc. etc. They can also be frustration barkers.

The one thing you've been doing that I would really disagree with is the "yelling" no at him when he's barking - in the first place, he's over threshold at that point, and can't really pay attention to you - and in the second place, you're not really giving him meaningful information or direction - to his mind you're joining in the barking.

In that sort of situation, being stationary, or trying to et him to sit, is making it very hard for him - you really need to be keeping him moving - preferaably away from the 'target' - hence the front clip harness to allow that to happen.

As far as possible in the next couple of weeks, I'd be aiming for frequent short, successful walks, in areas with minimal triggers for him. Lots of changes of direction while he's under threshold should help him cue in to you, and he should be aable to take treats or respond to a toy at that stage.

I would also be doing lots of little bits of trick training, basic obedience - in very short happy sessions with lots of treats and/or toy rewards. This should help him to build a trusting and happy relationship with you.

Not sure if all that makes sense - hopefully others will be along soon.

Thank you very much for your response. That all sounds like some good advice and I especially appreciate pointing out the things that I'm doing that aren't helpful. I'll look into the front clip harness and continue with the basic training.

Thank you very much.

[megan_]

Look up a game called "Look at That" (LAT) on this forum. It is a good way to help your dog not react to other dogs on walks (which isn't to do with loose leash walking).

[itsadogslife]

My advice would be to seek the help of a professional dog trainer. Nothing will change you from a novice to a more experienced dog handler quicker than professional help. The dog as you have said is middle aged, this behavior has more than likely been reinforced over a number of years. It is quite possibly why he (or she) ended up in rescue in the first place.

Get professional help now and you will be much better placed to handle similar problems in the future.

[Nekhbet]

I think let you and the dog get to know each other before going on walks. Spend more time in the back yard working on him understanding what you want and what commands you use.

The idea of this is that if the dog pulls, he will b pulled around towards you - makes it easier for you to do the change of direction thing - which is a great technique, I think.

Well the idea is that, I find the reality usually the opposite particularly if the dog has already gone past the point of caring about sensations or what the handler is doing. They just twist their heads back and go for gold in a stupid position instead.

Personally most harnesses can go in the bin, a well fitting correction chain, a 6 foot lead and a pocket full of treats/toy would be the way I recommend. If he goes to pull, a quick flick of the lead and call him back to you clearly, then heavy praise for any time he pays attention to you. Rewards are saved for when he's doing a super job so it keeps him on his toes. If he bolts and hits the end he will correct himself, pop his collar to make him turn to you and walk away from the stimulus then reward for him remaining close and focusing on you. Works in a day if you put the effort in but dogs with reactivities cannot be started on front attach harnesses. He needs a clearly defined boundary of what is acceptable or not in his behaviors.

[Weasels]

Look up a game called "Look at That" (LAT) on this forum. It is a good way to help your dog not react to other dogs on walks (which isn't to do with loose leash walking).

Whilst I love LAT, it might be a bit much to coordinate for a new dog and owner? Understanding threshold distance, being able to read the dog's body language before it reacts etc. - plus having to be clicker-savvy and have the timing required

With Weez I used a bunch of counter-conditioning first ("omg bike! have a butt-load of food! Aw it's gone, party's over") and then I only moved onto LAT once his reactivity had reduced enough that he started to think of bikes as a training opportunity rather than just time to go crazy. This approach has worked great for us - I have video somewhere of us playing LAT while 3 kids on bikes went right past him, 2 in front of him on the road and one RIGHT behind him on the footpath, with one of the kids yelling at the same time. He didn't even flinch! :)

Well the idea is that, I find the reality usually the opposite particularly if the dog has already gone past the point of caring about sensations or what the handler is doing. They just twist their heads back and go for gold in a stupid position instead.

Personally most harnesses can go in the bin, a well fitting correction chain, a 6 foot lead and a pocket full of treats/toy would be the way I recommend.

I find my front-attach harness works well when Weez is just on the verge of reacting - if he is on a collar or a sporn harness he can just lean into them (with his front paws in the air if he gets riled up), but with the harness it is much easier to do an about-turn and get him focussed back on me. I agree if the dog is really over-threshold the equipment becomes pretty useless regardless - but if my dog is lunging I'd rather have the pressure distributed across his chest than concentrated on his neck.

[megan_]

I do LAT without a clicker at all. At first I didn't worry much about threshold differences. They look at something, they get "look at that" and treats shoved in their mouth.

[Weasels]

I do LAT without a clicker at all. At first I didn't worry much about threshold differences. They look at something, they get "look at that" and treats shoved in their mouth.

Oh, cool ok that could work :) I found it difficult because the things Weez was reacting to were both common and appeared very quickly (bikes/scooters/skateboards) so I didn't always have time to grab treats and find somewhere to add appropriate distance. I found working on the CC first decreased his threshold distance within a few sessions, enough so that we could play LAT much more effectively in 'the real world'. There are a lot of variables in reactivity though so everyone's best strategy will be different :)

[Nekhbet]

but if my dog is lunging I'd rather have the pressure distributed across his chest than concentrated on his neck.

Corrective equipment is not meant to apply constant pressure to the neck. It is there to apply a correction to tell the dog 'hey we don't act like this thanks' and it is a quick sensation. Flat collars and harnesses apply no corrective effect in dogs like this hence they choke themselves and carry on like pork chops. Before the leash is taught you give a 'reverse poke' as I call it. A quick flick and redirect the dogs attention with your voice. But you cannot walk dogs on a tight short lead whilst learning.

Lets look at examples. When we train dogs for bitework and agitation what do we do. Keep a firm hand on the lead, dont allow slack, keep pressure on them because it makes them oppose and pull forward. When you try and use pressure like this to move your own dog as a pet the same principles apply - escalation of anxiety which is released in various different ways depending on the dog.

now how many people do you see with that same pose in parks and streets when their dogs go bananas because the equipment affords them no corrective properties with which to help quell or prevent that behavior. Now read that as having an impact on the behavior expression, NOT just trying to help them lever the dog into a different position.

Oh those sporn harnesses ... my god I hate them

The step of consequence is missing a lot in training these days and hence we're finding the training process becomes longer and you have to be further and further away to make it work. There is nothing wrong with a dog getting a correction if it will help the dog understand this behavior is very wrong, but the dog also needs to be immediately shown what to do and rewarded heavily. Black and white, no grey. Very fast learning.

but with the harness it is much easier to do an about-turn and get him focussed back on me.

See this is not how I train. Don't take this personally this is just my thought process - to me this is man handling the dog to get it to stop. There is no conscious thought process being taught in the dog to say 'hey this behavior has an alternative that will get me a reward I might make an effort to get that reward on my own'. You turn the dog. You have to keep turning the dog. I would not reward a dog I have to physically turn off something with my body, that is not completing a clear picture in that dogs head. If the dog has gone off it's head, correct, firmly turn and command dog to follow and move it. A clear picture the dog has done the wrong action. Settle the dog and try again, the dog should know you have a reward available. Get within a safe distance and let the dog CHOOSE. Do you want a correction that comes from nowhere, or do you want to stick with your handler who praises you and gives you rewards for your awesome focused behavior. The dog learns to think, the dog learns to weigh up situations and you find it's so clear cut they just cant be bothered reacting after a short while. I do not allow people to shout at their dogs, you are meant to be the best thing since sliced bread to this dog why would it want to come near you if you 'NO NO NO NO' at it. That's what equipment is for, to do that job.

This is still predominantly about heavily motivating the dog to learn, it just includes a consequence if it decides to try something silly. And since the dogs actions will make the consequence just appear, you see the dogs mind tick over as in 'ok fair call, I stuffed up' and they go on their merry way. No fight, no fear, no tantrums. You're just introducing a safety net that may mean the difference between life or the dog one day fighting or running under a car because that extra little niggling reminder of not to do it wasnt in its head.

[Weasels]

The step of consequence is missing a lot in training these days and hence we're finding the training process becomes longer and you have to be further and further away to make it work. There is nothing wrong with a dog getting a correction if it will help the dog understand this behavior is very wrong, but the dog also needs to be immediately shown what to do and rewarded heavily. Black and white, no grey. Very fast learning.

See this is not how I train. Don't take this personally this is just my thought process - to me this is man handling the dog to get it to stop. There is no conscious thought process being taught in the dog to say 'hey this behavior has an alternative that will get me a reward I might make an effort to get that reward on my own'. You turn the dog. You have to keep turning the dog. I would not reward a dog I have to physically turn off something with my body, that is not completing a clear picture in that dogs head. If the dog has gone off it's head, correct, firmly turn and command dog to follow and move it. A clear picture the dog has done the wrong action. Settle the dog and try again, the dog should know you have a reward available. Get within a safe distance and let the dog CHOOSE. Do you want a correction that comes from nowhere, or do you want to stick with your handler who praises you and gives you rewards for your awesome focused behavior. The dog learns to think, the dog learns to weigh up situations and you find it's so clear cut they just cant be bothered reacting after a short while. I do not allow people to shout at their dogs, you are meant to be the best thing since sliced bread to this dog why would it want to come near you if you 'NO NO NO NO' at it. That's what equipment is for, to do that job.

This is still predominantly about heavily motivating the dog to learn, it just includes a consequence if it decides to try something silly. And since the dogs actions will make the consequence just appear, you see the dogs mind tick over as in 'ok fair call, I stuffed up' and they go on their merry way. No fight, no fear, no tantrums. You're just introducing a safety net that may mean the difference between life or the dog one day fighting or running under a car because that extra little niggling reminder of not to do it wasnt in its head.

I don't take it personally - I think we have different training goals! I don't want Weez to understand that reacting is wrong, I want him to think bikes are awesome and nothing to be afraid of and not worth reacting to. Once we started working on the CC and could ride a bike straight past him it became even more clear that he was fearful of them because he would flinch and try to hide behind my legs when the bike went past. So with regards to reliability - take away the fear, take away the reaction I'm open-minded about corrections when my dogs are working in a drive situation (herding), but I won't use them on my boy when he's acting out of fear.

The turning him towards me was a part of the process when he would hesitate after he saw a bike but was still conflicted between barking at it and playing LAT with me. It was management to prevent him practicing the behaviour but also out of consideration for the people he was barking at because it curbed the behaviour the most effectively. I didn't reward the forced turn, I used it to get more distance to then play LAT :) And choosing wasn't part of our plan - I didn't want him to practice the reacting any more than he already had.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Weasels

[Nekhbet]

I don't take it personally - I think we have different training goals! I don't want Weez to understand that reacting is wrong, I want him to think bikes are awesome and nothing to be afraid of and not worth reacting to.

Ahhh different reaction then. A fearful reaction moving away from the object is not for correction :p I was thinking you meant he was actively reacting towards something ie wanting to chase it

[Nachi]

Thank you everyone for all your advice. I will definatley spend more time within the yard training, I also did order a front-clip harness, but I agree I should aim for better training on a check-chain too. The timing and corrections seems like something I need to improve on myself.

He use to belong to an elderly couple, which is why I thought he may not have been walked much at all previously. I'm hoping his over-excitement and anxiety from walks settle down in time? He seems much better in the street now vs more unfamiliar places.

[Weasels]

I don't take it personally - I think we have different training goals! I don't want Weez to understand that reacting is wrong, I want him to think bikes are awesome and nothing to be afraid of and not worth reacting to.

Ahhh different reaction then. A fearful reaction moving away from the object is not for correction :p I was thinking you meant he was actively reacting towards something ie wanting to chase it

Cool - I appreciate your detailed explanation still tho :) This is why one of the best things I've done since I got dogs was to research dog body language, makes working with them so much easier

--

Sorry to OT a bit there Nachi, I hope everything goes well with your new boy :)

[Nekhbet]

A few tips where people go wrong with correction chains

- never have any other collar on the dog, they get tangled and you cannot give a proper correction

- the chain should be just big enough to fit over your dogs head, when tightened there should be no more then 3 inches left over. Oversized chains cannot correct properly

- do not go out and just get the thickest thinking it will work. Most of the time a 2.5mm thickness is sufficient, and I recommend the Herm Sprenger solid stainless steel. Thick chains do not run through the look properly, and cheap chains can rust, break, or leave marks on your dog from the rubbish material they use

- the chain is meant to sit loose around the dogs neck. I get a lot of people saying 'oh it wont stay high on the neck'. It is not meant to, it is meant to apply no pressure at all until you require correction. Hence why they are so black and white

- do not pull the leash up tight. The collars work with a loose leash and a quick, sharp pop. If the dog pulls into them they're useless, or small leads cannot give a good correction

- the side your dog is on, the ring which has the chain running through it is to be running down away from you

This is the correct way of putting on the chain

this one is on upside down and will remain tightened. The ring is meant to pull the chain back open

This I dont like. You have to keep constant pressure on the dogs throat for it to remain there, and the only way to correct is to apply pressure until the dog settles. This is for professional use only so please dont let someone convince you its the right way.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Nekhbet

[Nekhbet]

Thank you everyone for all your advice. I will definatley spend more time within the yard training, I also did order a front-clip harness, but I agree I should aim for better training on a check-chain too. The timing and corrections seems like something I need to improve on myself.

He use to belong to an elderly couple, which is why I thought he may not have been walked much at all previously. I'm hoping his over-excitement and anxiety from walks settle down in time? He seems much better in the street now vs more unfamiliar place

He will come to settle, but you have the perfect opportunity to cement good habits now that he is new with you. Harness that enthusiasm towards yourself instead of other things and he will settle quickly.

Timing is not too difficult, if you see him starting to want to forge ahead or getting too disinterested in you, give him a command he knows, a chance to comply, then correct and walk him on. Another mistake people make is standing there calling and popping the dog. That is the best way to get the dog to react in fact, if he does not comply and he HAS heard you clearly (so be mindful how you speak) then the correction is fair. If you give a correction and nothing happens, that is not a correction. Give him a good pop, you will find he remembers that over a million niggling ones which really do nothing but build the dog up to ignore you.

[Aidan3]

There is no conscious thought process being taught in the dog to say 'hey this behavior has an alternative that will get me a reward I might make an effort to get that reward on my own'. You turn the dog. You have to keep turning the dog.

Really? That has not been my experience. You have to set them up for success, though.

[korbin13]

Are there any good videos on how to deliver a correction properly on the check chain?

[persephone]

The most important thing to remember with ANY correction ..is NOT to correct- physically or vocally when a dog is fearful..or very anxious.I have seen this do long lasting damage - if a dog is staring at or pulling away from something , and it gets corrected ..

I was trained to train with a chain collar ..and prefer it ,even now . It takes a lot of practice ..and getting to know your dog's body language ..watching his posture, her eyebrows wriggle to watch something , the way he swallows when he spots another dog ..or the way her tail reacts

...like using any other training aid/tool .. it should be applied confidently, at exactly the correct time, at a level which is tailored to the particular dog , and once only at a time.Praise is very important , and once again, should be tailored to the dog, and its temperament ...

I have trained very sensitive dogs , and absolute boof headed /skin of a rhino dogs with chain collars , and masses of praise - but obviously it doesn't suit everyone :)

[Nekhbet]

Really? That has not been my experience. You have to set them up for success, though.

You can't always do that in real life, a lot of the time the actions of others are out of your hands.

Are there any good videos on how to deliver a correction properly on the check chain?

I've tried looking on Youtube but I think the hippies whinged enough until they got taken down. Used to be a few really good ones I should have saved them