Defiant & Ignoring Commands

[Jozlyn]

Look at kikopup on YouTube for mentally stimulating exercises. You can also teach targetting which is great for agility foundations too.

Targeting?

[megan_]

There should be some YouTube clips of this. Basically it involves your dog targetting an object (eg your hand, a disc) with a body part (their nose, their paw).

I teach it via shaping and using markers. It is useful for agility and training behaviours you want. It is also good when you're practicing NILIF - touch my hand with your nose to get a pat etc.

[Jozlyn]

There should be some YouTube clips of this. Basically it involves your dog targetting an object (eg your hand, a disc) with a body part (their nose, their paw).

I teach it via shaping and using markers. It is useful for agility and training behaviours you want. It is also good when you're practicing NILIF - touch my hand with your nose to get a pat etc.

Thanks Megan, I'll do a search on "targeting" but shaping? markers?

[Dogsfevr]

I would say the biggest issue is you think her behaviour is defiance & ignoring & often your body language is felt by the dog .

Maybe the fact she comes when you back is turned is because she prefers the body language you give ,maybe when making face contact with her she doesn't get what you want .

The Kelpies we board here are super sensitive to our actions & i find if they are confused its like they switch off.

You say you call her to toilet & your having issues so put her on a leash & walk her around using your word.

I don't really know how to explain it, they also use very old fashioned methods, ie jerking on the correction chain to get the dog to be where you want it to, using a "growly" type voice for commands. I don't like their methods, I don't use them at home, I'm trying to stay one step ahead of them so that I can teach her what to do using my methods so that she will do it in class & I don't have to use theirs.

There methods may not be what you want but don't think what they teach is totally useless.

Training is all about learning from various people ,methods & what works for your dog .

You may find your voice commands are to generalized & with no real difference in what you want ,ie tone boring & repetitive.

I remember at trials watching dogs so disinterest in there owners as they where boring & one tone fits all,it applies in the show ring to .

I find dogs like kids tone makes such a massive difference in keeping them with you .

I would get someone to video you if you can & watch yourself over & over videos tell a thousand words & make you realize what you may/may not being doing wrong

[Jozlyn]

I would say the biggest issue is you think her behaviour is defiance & ignoring & often your body language is felt by the dog .

Maybe the fact she comes when you back is turned is because she prefers the body language you give ,maybe when making face contact with her she doesn't get what you want .

The Kelpies we board here are super sensitive to our actions & i find if they are confused its like they switch off.

You say you call her to toilet & your having issues so put her on a leash & walk her around using your word.

I don't really know how to explain it, they also use very old fashioned methods, ie jerking on the correction chain to get the dog to be where you want it to, using a "growly" type voice for commands. I don't like their methods, I don't use them at home, I'm trying to stay one step ahead of them so that I can teach her what to do using my methods so that she will do it in class & I don't have to use theirs.

There methods may not be what you want but don't think what they teach is totally useless.

Training is all about learning from various people ,methods & what works for your dog .

You may find your voice commands are to generalized & with no real difference in what you want ,ie tone boring & repetitive.

I remember at trials watching dogs so disinterest in there owners as they where boring & one tone fits all,it applies in the show ring to .

I find dogs like kids tone makes such a massive difference in keeping them with you .

I would get someone to video you if you can & watch yourself over & over videos tell a thousand words & make you realize what you may/may not being doing wrong

Excellent points, lots more to think about, thanks.

[Red Fox]

The dog is only 4 months old! She's just discovering that there is more to the world than you.

Step up your leadership. (Goolge NILIF / Cesar Millan / Leerburg for more info)

Don't give her the opportunity to stuff up - crate the dog when you're not watching to avoid toileting mistakes, use a long line or leash at all times to avoid her not coming when called.

There could be many reasons why she's not responding to your food rewards. The most obvious being that she is either full or bored. Cut down on her meals and make training sessions shorter, see if that helps.

And if you don't like/follow the methods that the local club uses either don't go or train outside of the class. Otherwise you'll only confuse the poor dog with using different methods. Out of interest, which book do they base their training on?

[Jumabaar]

I have only one thing to add to this conversation

Kelpies are EXCEPTIONAL human trainers!!!

At this point you can retrain everything so just work on a good communication/reward system. Once your dog knows how to get what they really really want (the reward that you are going to give) AND they know what the cue really means (and that might mean that they have to learn that 'sit' means bottom on ground in front of the big green chair, in the lounge room while you have slippers on as well as bottom on ground when you are in the kitchen with sneakers on and all other places since we dont know what the dog thinks is a cue the first time it learns something) then you will have a dog that will turn itself inside out to do what you want!!

[Jozlyn]

I have only one thing to add to this conversation

Kelpies are EXCEPTIONAL human trainers!!!

You are SO right :laugh:

At this point you can retrain everything so just work on a good communication/reward system. Once your dog knows how to get what they really really want (the reward that you are going to give) AND they know what the cue really means (and that might mean that they have to learn that 'sit' means bottom on ground in front of the big green chair, in the lounge room while you have slippers on as well as bottom on ground when you are in the kitchen with sneakers on and all other places since we dont know what the dog thinks is a cue the first time it learns something) then you will have a dog that will turn itself inside out to do what you want!!

Yep! Have just started "re-training" toileting on the lead, going ok so far.

[Rebanne]

Patience! :) Patience patience patience.

If training a dog was as easy and reliable as programming a robot, everyone would have perfect dogs ;)

It's hard to say what your dog is thinking when she sits looking at you. She may be conflicted. She may be confused. She may have a 'poisoned cue'. It will take time for you and her to learn to communicate effectively, but it sounds like you've got a great combination of a smart dog and a dedicated owner - you'll get there :)

VERY dedicated, I hate unruly, undisciplined dogs with a passion!

I think you are being too hard on the pup. She is 4 months old, lighten up.

[Salukifan]

4 month old pups have the brain spans of a gnat.

I think the first thing you need to be is realistic. I think the second thing you should do is kick the obedience club into touch if it's not how you wish to train your pup. if you're switching methods each week (using the obedience methods taught) and then doing something else at home, the poor pup is probably confused.

If things are not working well, the first lesson you need to learn is to look at your end of the leash before labelling the dog as "defiant". Most dogs do aim to please us. If you are having issues, there's every chance the fault lies with you.

Work on building a relationship of trust and confidence in you. After that, you can work on more specific behaviours. You want you dog to want to be with you.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[persephone]

I think you are being too hard on the pup. She is 4 months old, lighten up.

If things are not working well, the first lesson you need to learn is to look at your end of the leash before labelling the dog as "defiant". Most dogs do aim to please us. If you are having issues, there's every chance the fault lies with you.

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, and when you train yourself to interact with your puppy using N I L I F , you and she will very quickly learn how to simply and clearly communicate !!

[Jozlyn]

There should be some YouTube clips of this. Basically it involves your dog targetting an object (eg your hand, a disc) with a body part (their nose, their paw).

I teach it via shaping and using markers. It is useful for agility and training behaviours you want. It is also good when you're practicing NILIF - touch my hand with your nose to get a pat etc.

Found a Kikopup targeting clip

she picked it up instantly I also used a clicker and her response to that was also amazing

Perhaps I used the wrong wording for the title, I don't think I'm too harsh or expect too much, I just wanted to know why she stopped doing what I asked. I've upped the treats to a higher value, I've changed my tone to be more commanding (less gentle/questioning), I've taken everyone's suggestions into consideration and I'm applying most of them and she's responded really well already.

So I'd like to say a big Thank you for everyone's help

[Weasels]

great work, and the Kikopup videos are a fantastic resource!

Just on the tone - it's more important that the tone you use is consistent rather than how it sounds to human ears :) If you train with one tone/inflection and then use a different one out at the park, for example, that can be confusing. So if you pick a way of saying the cues that you can do every time that will be one less thing the dog will have to decipher from this strange talky human :D

(edit: or you need to train the cue with every inflection you plan to use; if you go down this route, including your Panic! voice for recalls and stays is a very good idea!)

Edited September 3, 2012 by Weasels

[Salukifan]

You also need to move to an intermittent reward schedule once a behaviour is on cue and reliably performed.

You don't want a dog that gives you the finger the moment it realises you're not carrying food. I've seen that.

[suziwong66]

targeting is a fabulous tool...Wilbur as a very young puppy would only hump a soccer ball till i taught him to target. now he play's 'soccer'

Edited September 3, 2012 by suziwong66

[SkySoaringMagpie]

VERY dedicated, I hate unruly, undisciplined dogs with a passion!

Sometimes I want to stick their owners' heads in the nearest poo bin, but all dogs are a product of the humans that bred and raised them. We are the superior species, so their behaviour is a reflection on our skill, time and dedication (or lack thereof).

Susan Garrett has done a really good short paper on getting the most out of dog training including a discussion on the importance of errors. You can get access to it by signing up to her newsletter here:

http://www.clickerdogs.com/

[Sares]

I think you are being too hard on yourself – its training you as much as its training the pup. Remember the pup is still only 4 months old and still working themselves out. As previously said, build on your relationship with the pup. Sounds like you are dedicated to get the training right which is fantastic. Don’t give up! :D

[fuzzy82]

I agree with whoever said "lighten up". Your puppy is a baby, and doesn't really "know" anything yet. She's just started learning.

You need to realise that a dog doesn't obey just because they should. They will obey because they think there is something in it for them, which can be either to get a reward or to avoid punishment. When a dog ignores you and does what it wants instead, it just means you haven't shown the dog how cool the behaviour really is. You need to make every behaviour really fun for the dog, that way she will WANT to do it when you ask, because she can't imagine anything else that would be more fun. Or you can introduce punishment, but to me that's like saying you're unable to make training fun, so you resort to punishment. (Of course punishment has its place in dog training, but for a 4 month old puppy who doesn't really know anything yet it's a bit over the top and unnecessary).

The secret to dog training is to reward the things you like, and prevent or interrupt the things you don't like. So if your dog doesn't have a solid recall, keep her on leash or a long line, and only call her when you think she will come, and reward for that. If you don't think she will come, go and get her rather than calling her over. By setting her up to succeed and making it fun when she does come, with practise you will be able to call her away from distractions.

Same goes for any behaviour, reward what you like and make it fun, prevent what you don't like, and don't ask the dog to do something unless you know she will do it. Then go back to basics and practise it more in a fun way, so that she will choose the behaviour you ask for over anything else, like sniffing.

Dog training is supposed to be fun for everyone. There's no need to use a "stern" voice. That suggests you're telling the dog "do it or else", and if you take that approach you have to be prepared to follow it up with punishment. But I don't think punishment (corrections etc) is appropriate for a 4 month old puppy.

Definitely look into Susan Garrett. Her dogs are brilliant, and she doesn't use any corrections, she just makes every behaviour fun and prevents the dog from self-rewarding when it makes the wrong choice. The dog's option is do the right thing = reward, do the wrong thing = no reward. It's very effective.

[Jozlyn]

targeting is a fabulous tool...Wilbur as a very young puppy would only hump a soccer ball till i taught him to target. now he play's 'soccer'

Clearly he LOVES playing "Soccer" :laugh: