Jozlyn Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Abby (Kelpie) will be 4 months old in 2 days. Just the last couple of days she's started to ignore or defy commands I give her, these are the one's she knows well. Is this normal? What do I need to do to fix this? Do I need to start her training again? Cheers, J Edit: Defiant & ignoring were not the right words to use now that I've read all of the responses! I think there was a lack of understanding on both our parts, my rewards were not of high enough value to her, my commands were not comanding, basically I was making quite a few mistakes! After just a few hours of work on myself, Abby has started to enthusiasticaly respond again. So thanks for all the help guys, much appreciated. Edited September 3, 2012 by Jozlyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Abby (Kelpie) will be 4 months old in 2 days. Just the last couple of days she's started to ignore or defy commands I give her, these are the one's she knows well. Is this normal? What do I need to do to fix this? Do I need to start her training again? Cheers, J Yep, pretty normal for a puppy! At 4 months she really shouldn't be out of training, so what you mean "start her training again?" Puppyhood is one long contiuious training session! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Pretty normal, but at 4 months I wouldn't consider training to be finished at all. Wait till she's 7 months Then the real teenager comes out :laugh: SNAP minimax :laugh: Edited September 3, 2012 by Aussie3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 What situations are you having problems in? Is it the same environment or are you taking the training somewhere new where there would be more distractions? What exactly is she doing when she doesn't do what you ask? My experience with Kaos has really shown me the importance of engagement/relationship building in training, expecially if you are aiming for competition, and especially if your dog is on the more independent side :laugh: This means working on getting and keeping their attention with active games that will keep them interested. Tug is generally seen as the holy grail for this :laugh: and even though Kaos still won't tug in a training or trialling environment, the work I have done on it (the LOTS of work I have done on it! every day) has improved his tugging 100% at home and I think has also improved his attention at training and trials. I challenge and push with this every day. I also play lots of active food chase games which I can take on the road with me to training and trials. Another thing that has made a big difference is proofing our basic obedience commands: sit, drop, stand. Kaos knows these very well, as part of an online course I had to test his understanding by seeing if he could still do them when I was in different positions ie lying down, sitting, kneeling, and also when I was running around. At first he struggled with some of them (sit from a drop when I was lying down) and now that he has the hang of it it has really imrpoved his responsiveness to those commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jozlyn Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Clearly I didn't explain myself very well, sorry. I haven't stopped training her. Nothing has changed in her environment or training locations. But atm she will only come when I call her if she "feels" like it, I KNOW she's defying me as she just sits and looks at me, with a sort of "not gonna come" look on her face. It's really surprised me just how many different expresions she has, like the way she cocks her head to one side if she doesn't understand what I'm asking her to do :) Toileting has taken another step backwards too, she wont come to me when I call her to her toilet area and IF she does she will procrastinate for AGES before she will finally go, again I KNOW it's just defiance, I can tell by the way she looks at me. She's also started to go inside way more. This I have to say, is frustrating the hell out of me, I need to find an industrial sized bottle of enzyme killer stuff and a black light to find all the spots Because if she's not going outside she MUST be going inside somewhere. She's still doing sit/drop/stand, but only inside the house, the same with fetch, she'll only do that inside. Outside she's back to stopping about a meter away from me and just looking at me, no matter how high value the treat is. Clearly I'm doing something wrong, but I haven't got a clue what. ATM I feel so frustrated with my lack of knowledge that I could scream I'm still waiting on a heap of Susan Garrett's books to arrive, wish they'd hurry up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 At 4 months old she is still a very young dog. She may have completed kindergarten training but she still needs to continue learning and complete highschool. :) Every time you're with your dog she's learning and it's an opportunity for you to consolidate any previous training. If you're taking your pup to new areas she is less likely to be responsive to commands as she checks out the area due to different smells, sights and sounds as these may be unfamiliar. If there are added distractions like other dogs, she is less likely to be responsive to your commands as well as she checks these out too. Building a strong relationship with the dog and working on the foundations of training, over and over again, until the dog can do them, no matter whether your standing, sitting, back turned or upside-down :laugh: will help get the consistency you're after. Plus, importantly, giving the right reinforcement like food, toys, play or praise will increase the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) What are you using to reward her? Are you rewarding every time? Or just sometimes? What do you do when she doesn't come? Try saying her name & running in the opposite direction. Unless there are major distractions, most pups will run after you. When she does, praise & reward her. Also be careful not to use the word come if she is not coming. Get the behaviour you want first & then put a word on it. She is not defying you, she either doesn't understand or you are not making it worth her while to do it. It might be worth finding a good training class & joining. You will both find it beneficial. Edited September 3, 2012 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Cocking the head to one side is actually a calming signal - dogs often do this when stressed as it is a way to give the "I'm trying, okay" signal to another dog or human. If she is only doing stuff in one location then I'd say she doesn't truly understand what you want. Remember that dogs aren't good at generalising. For example, if you teach your dog to sit when they have a leash on, then the dog will think that "leash on + the word sit = I must put my bum on the floor". You need to go to different locations and train as if the dog doesn't know anything. With and without the leash, indoors, outdoors, around people, dogs etc, so that the only thing in common is the word sit = bum on the floor. ETA: I agree with Kavik re: focusing on relationship building rather than learning lots of stuff. When you get this right then training is really easy. Edited September 3, 2012 by megan_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Yep, relationship building will help with a lot of those :) Plus, if you get the chance, might be an idea to look into signing up for Susan Garrett's next lot of Recallers - that made a HUGE difference for me! Lots of really fun games that help with relationship building and recall. I still practice some of them every day because they are great fun and help to build lightning fast responses to your cues. I have had problems with Kaos running out of the ring in agility, been an issue from the beginning. This year he has only done it once so far, and I admit it was on a day I was not on the ball and not feeling 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 This article might help you think about what's happening too. This While you're waiting for your Susan Garrett books to arrive, you could look at some of the many YouTube clips that Kikopup, (Emily Larlham) has They are a great source of training information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jozlyn Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) What are you using to reward her? Are you rewarding every time? Or just sometimes? Cheese or boiled chicken, I reward her everytime. What do you do when she doesn't come? Try saying her name & running in the opposite direction. Unless there are major distractions, most pups will run after you. When she does, praise & reward her. Also be careful not to use the word come if she is not coming. Get the behaviour you want first & then put a word on it. I turn my back on her and walk away, she will generally come to me, if she does she gets praised & rewarded, if not I go back inside without saying anything to her. It might be worth finding a good training class & joining. You will both find it beneficial. I SO wish I could but unfortunately I live out in the middle of nowhere I go to the nearest Obedience Club every Sunday, but that is all they do, I don't really know how to explain it, they also use very old fashioned methods, ie jerking on the correction chain to get the dog to be where you want it to, using a "growly" type voice for commands. I don't like their methods, I don't use them at home, I'm trying to stay one step ahead of them so that I can teach her what to do using my methods so that she will do it in class & I don't have to use theirs. I really only go for socialisation for both of us and at some point I'm going to want to use their agility equipment too. I bought the book that they use as their training basis, but thus far I haven't been able to bring myself to read it, it's so old and out of date with current training methods Until my Susan Garrett books arrive, I'm really, really relying on these forums (& Kikopup although I'm not using a clicker), I just wish I'd found it 10 weeks ago when we got her, I wouldn't have made SO many mistakes with her and she'd be so much further ahead. Edited September 3, 2012 by Jozlyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 If she is only doing stuff in one location then I'd say she doesn't truly understand what you want. Remember that dogs aren't good at generalising. For example, if you teach your dog to sit when they have a leash on, then the dog will think that "leash on + the word sit = I must put my bum on the floor". You need to go to different locations and train as if the dog doesn't know anything. With and without the leash, indoors, outdoors, around people, dogs etc, so that the only thing in common is the word sit = bum on the floor.<br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 17.600000381469727px; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247); "><br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 17.600000381469727px; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247); ">ETA: I agree with Kavik re: focusing on relationship building rather than learning lots of stuff. When you get this right then training is really easy. <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">Vickie, on 03 September 2012 - 02:31 PM, said: What do you do when she doesn't come? Try saying her name & running in the opposite direction. Unless there are major distractions, most pups will run after you. When she does, praise & reward her. Also be careful not to use the word come if she is not coming. Get the behaviour you want first & then put a word on it.<br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 17.600000381469727px; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247); "> I turn my back on her and walk away, she will generally come to me, if she does she gets praised & rewarded, if not I go back inside without saying anything to her.<br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 17.600000381469727px; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247); "> you might have actually now trained her to come when you turn and walk away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jozlyn Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 you might have actually now trained her to come when you turn and walk away Oh great I give up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Don't stress too much. She's only 4 months, you have plenty of time to work on the basics with her :) Just be consistent and don't give up :) Edited September 3, 2012 by Aussie3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimax Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 you might have actually now trained her to come when you turn and walk away Oh great I give up Don't worry, my pug trained my OH to give her a treat in order to come back inside, so you're not the first one to inadvertantly train something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 I give up Oh, No..don't give up ... imagine if your Mum had done that when toilet training YOU :p Just relax ..enjoy your puppy , play lots of calm and mentally challenging games ...go for walks ..not runs, not gallops..just walks on dirt/grass ...and watch her/learn her language and routines . That is the most important thing .get to know how your pup 'ticks' thru observation & interaction. learn , learn, learn. You know what? It's really hard to pass on knowledge efficiently if you are unsure of how it will be processed at the other end . I think you and she will learn from, and enjoy ,the Nothing In Life Is Free program .. it gives both of you opportunities for reward, patience and fun .click here for how it works :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Patience! :) Patience patience patience. If training a dog was as easy and reliable as programming a robot, everyone would have perfect dogs ;) It's hard to say what your dog is thinking when she sits looking at you. She may be conflicted. She may be confused. She may have a 'poisoned cue'. It will take time for you and her to learn to communicate effectively, but it sounds like you've got a great combination of a smart dog and a dedicated owner - you'll get there :) Edited September 3, 2012 by Weasels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jozlyn Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 play lots of calm and mentally challenging games Any suggestions for games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jozlyn Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Patience! :) Patience patience patience. If training a dog was as easy and reliable as programming a robot, everyone would have perfect dogs ;) It's hard to say what your dog is thinking when she sits looking at you. She may be conflicted. She may be confused. She may have a 'poisoned cue'. It will take time for you and her to learn to communicate effectively, but it sounds like you've got a great combination of a smart dog and a dedicated owner - you'll get there :) VERY dedicated, I hate unruly, undisciplined dogs with a passion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Look at kikopup on YouTube for mentally stimulating exercises. You can also teach targetting which is great for agility foundations too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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