What Is A Purebred?

[mixeduppup]

This subject was recently brought up in another thread and I thought I would ask.

What do you classify as a purebred? Does a dog need papered parents to be classed as a purebred? Does it simply need parents of proven lineage without its own papers? Can it be a dog that looks and acts like the breed it is said to be but has nothing on paperwork to prove it is that breed? I was raised with a purebred dog, it was rescued and had no paperwork or history but it was obvious it was that breed, we always referred to it as a purebred. My personal understanding is that for a dog to be pedigree it must have papers, if the dog is without papers but looks and acts like that breed then it is. What is the difference between purebred and pedigree?

For instance if you rescue a GSD from the pound, it's obvious it's a GSD, everything screams GSD but there's no paperwork, is it therefore a crossbred because there's nothing to say it's not? Shouldn't experienced opinion be enough in some cases?

Edited August 31, 2012 by mixeduppup

[Dame Aussie]

I wouldn't call anything I got as a rescue/without papers a purebred, but having said that, I don't often refer to my own purebred dog as purebred anyway :laugh:

If I had adopted the hypothetical GSD I would just tell people it was a GSD.

If they asked about it being purebred, I would probably say I believe so, but can't be sure.

If I knew that GSD was born of parents that were purebred GSD I would classify it as purebred yes, but without a pedigree.

[Weasels]

I always think of 'purebred' to mean a dog with papers. My dogs both look and act like kelpies down to the bone but they're still my little rescue mutts :)

[mixeduppup]

OK so how about if I said (purely hypothetical lol) that I had two papered dogs of the same breed but was too lazy/greedy to bother becoming a reg stud so just bred them together and sold the pups. I know the pups are that breed because I bred their parents, are the pups purebred?

[megan_]

To me, pedigreed purebred means dog with papers (not necessarily ANKC papers either).

I consider my mini schnauzer rescue to be a mini schnauzer, and so did the Schnauzer Club that rescued her (which includes lots of pedigree breeders). I think it would be silly to call her "small dog of unknown origin".

[Dame Aussie]

OK so how about if I said (purely hypothetical lol) that I had two papered dogs of the same breed but was too lazy/greedy to bother becoming a reg stud so just bred them together and sold the pups. I know the pups are that breed because I bred their parents, are the pups purebred?

IMO yes, as I interpret purebred to just mean that the dogs parents are of the same breed. Pedigree is another thing altogether.

I'm sure people will disgaree but that's how I see it. :laugh:

[ellz]

OK so how about if I said (purely hypothetical lol) that I had two papered dogs of the same breed but was too lazy/greedy to bother becoming a reg stud so just bred them together and sold the pups. I know the pups are that breed because I bred their parents, are the pups purebred?

IMO they would be purebred and you'd be a BYBer.

[Kia]

purebred always use to refer to a dog/pup sold without papers.....even if the parents themselves weren't papered but purebred.

A pedigree dog always has the paperwork to back that up.

[mixeduppup]

OK so how about if I said (purely hypothetical lol) that I had two papered dogs of the same breed but was too lazy/greedy to bother becoming a reg stud so just bred them together and sold the pups. I know the pups are that breed because I bred their parents, are the pups purebred?

IMO they would be purebred and you'd be a BYBer.

Don't worry, I'd never be a BYBer. I never want to breed dogs at all and hate BYBs with a vengeance.

[Sandra777]

purebred always use to refer to a dog/pup sold without papers.....even if the parents themselves weren't papered but purebred.

A pedigree dog always has the paperwork to back that up.

A purebred dog has two parents of the same breed. A pedigree is a record of ancestry, it doesn't mean the ancestors are the same breed. A pedigree purebred has both :)

[mixeduppup]

Oh, so you're saying that a dog can be pedigree but be a crossbreed? But the ANKC normally won't paper a dog that isn't pedigree purebred will it?

[HazyWal]

I wouldn't call anything I got as a rescue/without papers a purebred, but having said that, I don't often refer to my own purebred dog as purebred anyway :laugh:

If I had adopted the hypothetical GSD I would just tell people it was a GSD.

If they asked about it being purebred, I would probably say I believe so, but can't be sure.

If I knew that GSD was born of parents that were purebred GSD I would classify it as purebred yes, but without a pedigree.

My greyhounds are rescue dogs and they are 100% purebred greyhounds. I have no papers but they are greyhounds. Not having a go at you Aussie just sayin... :)

[SchnauzerMax]

Oh, so you're saying that a dog can be pedigree but be a crossbreed? But the ANKC normally won't paper a dog that isn't pedigree purebred will it?

I'll give an example:

Miniature schnauzers were 'created' by crossing standard schnauzers with smaller dogs such as affenpinschers and poodles.

A pedigreed miniature schnauzer will have pedigreed miniature schnauzer parents but their ancestors will include standard schnauzers and the other breeds.

EFS

Edited August 31, 2012 by SchnauzerMax

[mixeduppup]

Oh ok. I see. Is that still done these days (OT slightly, sorry) Can I derail my own thread for but a moment? :)

[RiverStar-Aura]

Does a dog need papered parents to be classed as a purebred? Does it simply need parents of proven lineage without its own papers?

In my mind yes a dog does require papers to be considered 'purebred'. Proof of lineage doesn't mean purebred. Look at the case of all the LabradorxPoodles being called 4th/5th generation purebred Labradoodles just because there's proof of lineage.

If you look at the definition of pedigree it means:

1) an ancestral line, line of descent, lineage, ancestry

2) A genealogical table, chart, list or record especially of an animal

3) Distinguished, excellent or pure ancestry

and to me this is what a pedigree is. More like a family tree rather than a status.

But it is a rather grey distinction between the two.

Edited to fix typos

Edited August 31, 2012 by RiverStar-Aura

[Simply Grand]

Oh, so you're saying that a dog can be pedigree but be a crossbreed? But the ANKC normally won't paper a dog that isn't pedigree purebred will it?

I'll give an example:

Miniature schnauzers were 'created' by crossing standard schnauzers with smaller dogs such as affenpinschers and poodles.

A pedigreed miniature schnauzer will have pedigreed miniature schnauzer parents but their ancestors will include standard schnauzers and the other breeds.

EFS

Also, pedigree doesn't have to mean ANKC pedigree (although that's usually what is meant on DOL). So you could technically have a dog with a pedigree (written record of its ancestry) with no two dogs of the same breed in it.

When it comes to purebred, I think it's widely accepted that it means both parents are the same breed - it then comes down to what is considered a "breed". The Aus Labradoodle (or Cobba Dog) people do consider it a breed and do have records of ancestry for their dogs so they would refer to their dogs as pedigree purebred Labradoodles. The ANKC would not recognise them as such.

[dogsaremyworld]

I think this is another game of semantics.

A purebred dog is a dog that has a record of ancestory proving that it's ancestors are purebred dogs. Yes, when breed's were created they were made with a mix of other breeds, but this is a LONG way back in it's history (I think it is a least five generations back but I'm not sure) Most modern registered dogs would have many more than five generations back of purebred registered dogs in thier history.

A pedigree dog is the same thing. A dog that has been bred by a registered breeder, with registered parents, and the progeny has papers outlining it's ancestors.

I think trying to muddy the waters and determine that they are two different things is wrong.

A dog may look like a certain breed, act like a certain breed, but have something very different in it's past. I think if you rescue a dog without paper's then there is no way you can say that it is a purebred dog. I suppose you could take your dog to the vet and do one of those 4 generation DNA tests, to prove or disprove it, but even then you are only going back four generations. I'll give you an example. A FB 'friend' of mine owns an undesexed 'Maltese' and and and undesexed 'Australian Silky'. She recently bred these two dogs (to my absolute disgust) and had three pups - a black, an apricot, and a blue brindle. She claims these two dogs are 'purebred', but one sure as hell must of something different to those two breeds in it's past (I suspect a Staffy,but can't be sure) to come out with coat colours that neither of the two 'purebred' breeds possess.

I think we should stop trying to define dogs that are outside of the ANKC registry as purebred. You cannot prove that they are 'purebred' by the way they look, or act. The only way to prove they are either purebred or pedigree, is by thier record of ancestory. I have no issue with people saying they have rescued a GSD from the pound, but to take that dog, breed it to another dog that looks like a GSD and then sell the pups as purebred, that is wrong and unethical.

I think the larger issue is why the need to define a dog as purebred in the first place, if you did not purchase the dog within the ANKC system. Why does it matter? If you rescued a dog, surely you chose the dog based on it's temperament and looks, and not on the fact that it looked like a purebred dog. I have never ever seen a dog advertised in the pound referred to as a purebred or a pedigree dog (not saying that it doesn't happen, but I was under the belief that for legal reasons they cannot advertise something that they cannot prove). Why can't you just say it is a rescue silky, or a rescue malt, etc, etc, why does it have to be a purebred? People who rescue dogs have undertaken a noble, and life saving act.

If your dog is not from a registered breeder, with registered parents on the main registry, with papers issued from the ANKC I don't think it can be considered purebred. Unless you can prove it's ancestory, you have no idea what lies in it's genetic past. When breeds are first created, dogs of different breeds are combined, but even this is recorded. I think it is grossly unfair to the great majority of the public who are not as educated as we all are, when we have terms that are so confusing. I personally have seen;

- an ad for a purebred cavoodle (both it's parents were cavoodles you see)

- people registered with the local council as a business, saying they are registered breeders

- people who have bred two limited registered dogs, selling show potential pups, without a prefix

- people issuing thier own pedigrees

- ads for purebred dogs, when one of the parent's was a labradoodle

- people selling show quality labradoodles

- people saying thier business name is thier prefix

- pups with Champion bloodlines, with papers, from a breeder with no prefix, and not a member of Dogs SA, and do not show

- Chi x, silky x, malt x, pups - you can only have two parents for a cross.

It goes on and on and on. I won't bore you anymore - but it is so confusing to the general public, that people get bamboozled by all the terms and definitions and end up buying something they think is one thing but is really just from a BYB'er, or a puppy farmer.

[dancinbcs]

A pedigree is a family tree that can be proven so breeds in development can still have a pedigree even if they are made up of different breeds but it doesn't make themm purebred for quite a long time. A purebred dog refers to a registered purebred with legal registration papers to prove it is in fact from the parents it it supposed to be and they and all ancestors in turn are themselves registered purebred dogs of the same breed.

A dog may appear to be a particular breed and it fact have a grandparent, for example that is a different breed. Sometimes it is impossible to tell just be looking at the dog, especially with puppies.

The bottom line is that without papers it is just a mutt no matter what it looks like and you have no legal comeback if the puppy you bought doesn't turn out to be what it was supposed to be.

[Greytmate]

Purebreed means to breed pure.

It means if you put two of that breed together, they will breed pure, you will not end up with anything other than a dog with the breed traits. I think it's pretty commonly accepted that this will take at least 8 generations until you can be sure a pair of dogs will breed pure. Then you have dogs that can be called purebreds.

A pedigree is a document that visualises the dog's lineage (family tree). All dogs have a lineage, no puppies just appeared by magic, they were all born from other dogs. A pedigree document could only be produced if the dogs came from registered lines. Most cross breed dogs are of unknown lineage. So a pedigree document cannot be produced for them. Unregistered dogs are also of unknown pedigree as the dog is an unknown individual. Cross breed dogs of known lineage are unregistered so they are also unknown and so a pedigree could not be produced for them.

Sometimes an unknown dog will come into rescue that looks exactly like a purebreed. It can be called whatever breed it looks like, but as it will be desexed, you will have no way to know if it is a purebreed or not. This dog shouldn't be called a cross breed or a purebreed, it is of unknown breeding. It will not have a pedigree unless it comes with identification documents. An unknown dog has an unknown pedigree, so you cannot claim that the dog is pedigree. (Race bred greyhounds have tattoos, so this identifies them as registered, purebreed, and having a pedigree)

So pedigree and purebreed mean different things - a pedigree is a document showing lineage (and only worth something if produced by a registry), purebreed means to breed pure and not throw traits that don't belong in that breed.

[mixeduppup]

So in that case if some unscrupulous idiot decided to breed two papered pedigree dogs their pups would be purebred, but not pedigree purebred? Have I got that right? Whereas rescues (mainly pound dogs) would be called crosses or unknown because they have no definite lineage that can be traced?

Edited August 31, 2012 by mixeduppup