smisch Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 I also think there should be more judges asking for terriers to face off! But I also think that if an exhibitor does not know how to face off their dog safely they should politely inform the judge that because of their lack of experience they don't wish to participate. You have a terrier, treat it as such. If this practise makes you "really upset and disgusted" then maybe a terrier is not the breed for you. So many are now just watered down, gutless shells of what they used to be, all in the name of "family pet". Let me just start by saying as far as earth dogging records can tell us amber is the ONLY Lakeland to have earthdogging titles she was the FIRST to get her EIC and she continues to work in this sport.. We train her using rabbit pieces, we allow her as much terrier-ness as we can! We have also let her run in the jack Russell races which was fantastic to see her be able to run and chase.. She has fantastic toy drive loves to play and "kill" her toys.. But she has a sweet nature with other dogs and people.. I am not totally against sparring if it's done tastefully like MissMoos post but the way the judge did it Sunday I am disgusted and will not go under that judge again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 I know terrier old breeders that lament the fact his isn't done any more as it used to be common and that many terriers have lost the fiery nature to take on all comers. And lets remember vermin killing isn't just a Terrier thing. Miniature Schnauzers where breed to be Ratters,Dachshunds go to ground for vermin ,You have the Sighthounds So many breeds where breed for similiar work & no one thinks twice about them. A good Terrier in nature doesn,t mean it will kill all things after all many terriers that do there thing at home come straight out the ring With other Terriers. The only Terrier that i would truly take upmost precautions would be the Kerry Blue ,they are the Terrier of terriers BUT they are also very trainable & can be extremely social. Facing off is about showing gameness & terrier pride not about killing . Our Beddies & Kerries lived happily in our household but our Kerry girl was a very proud Terrier in the ring . Infact at most shows you will see varying Terriers facing each other in breed/group ine ups so bringing the selected breeds to the middle is no different . I aslo have gundogs & it amazes me how many gundogs can run past a bird in the showring without a second glance ,very sad I actually don't mind if my Gundog ignored a bird in the ring. She knows the difference between a magpie in front of her line of sight, and the scent of a quail in the field, and will act accordingly. What's SAD about gundogs in the Gundog showring isn't the lack of interest in sighting a bird, it's that most of them will never get a whiff of a game bird (quail and other game available for hunting in Australia), or have the opportunity to retrieve, or flush and retrieve feathered or furred game, and as a result, we will never know if that instinct is retained or not, when breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitz3 Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 i have never seen this in the ring but would love to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 won't that mean a break-away in working and family/show lines though? A feisty terrier temperament wouldn't be suitable in most households, so there are either fewer bred in total, or some are bred "softer". Also, the key to a "proper" face off is control which is why it should only be attempted by handlers who know what they are doing. And control is all about managing correct temperament and using it in a constructive way. Just because a dog has correct terrier temperament doesn't make it any less likely to be a good family pet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 i have never seen this in the ring but would love to When done properly, it is exciting and exhilerating!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceilidh Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 i have never seen this in the ring but would love to When done properly, it is exciting and exhilerating!! Absolutely!! My foxie is the most laid back terrier, he loves all people and all dogs, wags his tail constantly and doesn't start fights, HOWEVER........he will NOT back down! And I have seen this on three occasions now! He will face off as he should, on the tiptoe of expectation! Then come home and sleep on my lap :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 won't that mean a break-away in working and family/show lines though? A feisty terrier temperament wouldn't be suitable in most households, so there are either fewer bred in total, or some are bred "softer". My terriers are family pets and feisty terriers. The two should not be incompatible and those who think so should not get a terrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jsk Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 I can understand Smisch's point, I know her and her OH and neither of them would try and change Amber to become something the breed shouldn't be. BUT what the judge done IMO was wrong. As so As someone has said sparring should be done with 2 dogs. What this judge has essentially done was sparring in a pack situation with 4 dogs. Also with Amber only being just 9 mths old she should not have been put up against much older dogs. Also not all dogs will know when it's over, and stay agitated. As Smisch's said there was very near an incident with 2 dogs after the fact. All it would take is for someone to walk a little too close to a dog that is agitated after a spar for it to end badly. Also the point some people seem to be missing is how is this sparring taken by the general public when seen? Quite simply they don't know what's going on, and it does put a bad light on the breeds to the unknowing public. And while yes it's easy to say but this is what the breed is bred for it still at the end of the day looks bad to the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 They seem to get them in very close. Not sure I would be comfortable with that................having said that I have had Dobes in the ring and they are up and on their toes just by being in the ring with other Dobes so getting them that close would be a disaster. The WHippets would just looked bored :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jsk Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 Those clips posted by showdown were done all very controlled at no time were any of the dogs aggressive, to me the first clip the dogs were waaaaaaay to close but it was controlled with no incident that we seen. The incident Smisch is talking about some of the dogs were not as controlled as those in the clip, also there nearly was an incident when leaving the ring with one the dogs asked to spar. And when they were in the ring sparring there was aggression shown from one of the dogs. I know for a fact if Smisch had if been asked to take her dog to spar in one of the incidences shown the the clips there would have been no issue at all, but this was done very different in a situation that was not very controlled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrirose Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 They seem to get them in very close. Not sure I would be comfortable with that................having said that I have had Dobes in the ring and they are up and on their toes just by being in the ring with other Dobes so getting them that close would be a disaster. The WHippets would just looked bored :) :laugh: To the OP: Shame you were in a situation you were not comfortable with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 To be blunt, who honestly cares what sparring in the ring at a dog show looks like to the public? The reality is that most of the general public think dog shows and dog show people are weird anyway so why would sparring, under controlled conditions, be viewed any differently? There was a question in another thread asking how judges could see if a breed had "proper" temperament for the breed during the limited time available for an examination in the ring and the essentially "unnatural" conditions imposed by the show ring situation...for some terrier breeds....sparring is the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 To be blunt, who honestly cares what sparring in the ring at a dog show looks like to the public? The reality is that most of the general public think dog shows and dog show people are weird anyway so why would sparring, under controlled conditions, be viewed any differently? There was a question in another thread asking how judges could see if a breed had "proper" temperament for the breed during the limited time available for an examination in the ring and the essentially "unnatural" conditions imposed by the show ring situation...for some terrier breeds....sparring is the answer. So you can tell whether a dog is a good ratter by seeing how it reacts to other dogs of the same breed when placed in close proximity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 To be blunt, who honestly cares what sparring in the ring at a dog show looks like to the public? The reality is that most of the general public think dog shows and dog show people are weird anyway so why would sparring, under controlled conditions, be viewed any differently? There was a question in another thread asking how judges could see if a breed had "proper" temperament for the breed during the limited time available for an examination in the ring and the essentially "unnatural" conditions imposed by the show ring situation...for some terrier breeds....sparring is the answer. So you can tell whether a dog is a good ratter by seeing how it reacts to other dogs of the same breed when placed in close proximity? No, obviously not...that's being a tad literal don't you think? But you CAN see if a dog has "game" temperament if it is placed against opposition IN CONTROLLED CIRCUMSTANCES!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Considering what I read in GSD threads relating to temperament testing, it can get pretty literal as to what is being tested when this is being discussed :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Considering what I read in GSD threads relating to temperament testing, it can get pretty literal as to what is being tested when this is being discussed :laugh: Yeah but GSD temperament testing, and shows, take everything to the "umpteenth" level anyway. And GSD's for many years were allowed to do things at their shows that were not allowed at other breed shows (double handling for example), so it's a bit hard to compare because it truly can be like apples and oranges IMO. :) That said, many of us terrier people carry "squeaky rats" in our pockets to animate our dogs, so it's really only a step up until somebody decides to try the real thing! :laugh: (joking.....kind of........ ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smisch Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 LOL well like I said we have rabbit ears and tail we use to get amber enthused in the ring., that shows she has gameness and she LOVES her earthdogging, wish we could somehow bring that totally out in a ring.. As she is a very game puppy just not with other dogs as she has been taught, calm and happy playtime kind of responses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Thanks for sharing those showdog :) Edited September 3, 2012 by DiscoDobe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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