smisch Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I just want others opinions as this is how it went down in my groups judging today.. Please note I'm not bitter about the results at all i knew we wouldnt place as her grooming was not up to par today. I was just feeling very uncomfortable about everything.. The judge brought us all in for BIG and straight away pulled out the Airedale, Irish, welsh and my 9 month old Lakeland and brought us into the middle of the ring and into a circle and asked us to sparr the dogs.. I've never been asked by a judge and had no idea what was actually required by me I knew it was related to eye contact and a semi revving each other up.. Amber just stood beside me and looked at me, she had no idea what was required... I dont teach Amber let alone encourage any form of aggressive behavior and to me the concept of sparring in that situation it was wasn't just 2 dogs in a line up set up with adequate distance, it made me feel really unsettled, particualary when a dog was getting very assertive but was the awarded through out the awards.. To be honest I was really upset and disgusted as there was almost an incident between 2 dogs in this instance and I don't encourage this type of testing, I've never seen it done this way I have seen some owners do it in agreeance with one another in a breed line up.. I am not a total novice handler I have handled neurmerous breeds and sizes in showing and in agility but I think in this day and age where there is so much back lash into bsl and dangerous dog laws all that is needed is for a member of the public to get footage or photos of this and it could be a lot more dramatic especially as the general public isn't as informed about what the "point" of the excerscie is I have had people rip it out of me on Facebook saying that I'm too soft with my girl.. So others can't really offend me much worse but I believe strongly that that was not required at all they were the only 4 dogs pulled out for this sparring excerscie.. I mean if your gonna do that why not get a bite suit and get breeds to chase down and bite it.. JMHO but I'm not happy about it all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 (edited) Ok as a terrier trainee judge and terrier owner this has a correct protocol...only two should be done at once and walked up towards eachother slowly..( generally from a distance and be kept at least a few feet apart) and in no manner shouldn't it be aggressive! It's merely getting the dogs to sight each other and be on "their toes)" any signs of aggression the dogs shoud be turned away and not tried again. Breeds like a bullies, Am Staffs and Staffs should never be spared. Unfortunatly most terriers would have no clue what to do as too many are far to soft and bait orientated....no, a terrier should not be aggressive but should have a fiery terrier temperament. IMO a youngster shouldn't have been sparred either...your poor gal! Edited August 26, 2012 by Missymoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smisch Posted August 26, 2012 Author Share Posted August 26, 2012 Ok as a terrier trainee judge and terrier owner this has a correct protocol...only two should be done at once and walked up towards eachother slowly..( generally from a distance and be kept at least a few feet apart) and in no manner shouldn't it be aggressive! It's merely getting the dogs to sight each other and be on "their toes)" any signs of aggression the dogs shoud be turned away and not tried again. Breeds like a bullies, Am Staffs and Staffs should never be spared. Unfortunatly most terriers would have no clue what to do as too many are far to soft and bait orientated....no, a terrier should not be aggressive but should have a fiery terrier temperament. IMO a youngster shouldn't have been sparred either...your poor gal! I fully agree with this kind of controlled behavior.. Only if they have to sparr I think your right in also saying they're too soft of heavily baited to understand natural sparring.. Amber is trained on bait, tugg and today we were using dried bunny ears and tail sent to us from her breeder she loves them and gets right into them what's more terrier then that LOL!! I'm not sure what you'd personally class as aggressive but one of the dogs was getting very vocal growly and eyeing off competition.. Im not sure how much control the handler had.. Tbh I'm thankful that we didn't have set backs and that amber was responsive to me as she is a firey girl and having small fluffies I'd hate for her to transfer that type of behavior to the dogs or any dog in that manner.. We save the nuttiness for our agility and earth dogging where she had freedom to run it off lol.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 There not sparring but showing they have true terrier nature & not all the terriers are asked to do this as it isn't part of the breed nature. When i showed the Terriers we often had it done under Internationals & i never had an issue with it,infact i like judges who do it . A good handler knows how to control there dogs & good judges will often take this in & they shouldn't be acting aggressive just being an alert Terrier & when the handler & dog do it correctly it is a stunning sight The Airedale i showed would do this exercise great & then would go interact with any kind of dog ,it really is no different than stacking in the line up & turning yours to face the other so it looks great & you would see that in the terrier ring every weekend dogs in breed/group line ups facing each other . I agree to many Terriers are soft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I know terrier old breeders that lament the fact his isn't done any more as it used to be common and that many terriers have lost the fiery nature to take on all comers. It makes for better pets but it means they are no longer true to type terriers. Most terriers were bred to fight or kill something (usually vermin)and I think a lot of people forget that was their purpose for existing. Having a terrier (in the required breeds) that has no instinct to spar is like having a gundog with no instinct to retrieve. I have been told by breeders that Border Terriers were the only breed not required to spar in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 I have been told by breeders that Border Terriers were the only breed not required to spar in the past. Of the earth terriers, yes. As already mentioned, Staffords, Amstaffs & Bull Terriers don't take part. I have had one judge ask me to bring my very dominant male Stafford out to spar, I refused, when he demanded I walked out of the ring. No, pups shouldn't be included if there is an adult involved, but two similar aged pups can have a little go and usually end up wriggling and laughing :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toshman Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Ok as a terrier trainee judge and terrier owner this has a correct protocol...only two should be done at once and walked up towards eachother slowly..( generally from a distance and be kept at least a few feet apart) and in no manner shouldn't it be aggressive! It's merely getting the dogs to sight each other and be on "their toes)" any signs of aggression the dogs shoud be turned away and not tried again. Breeds like a bullies, Am Staffs and Staffs should never be spared. Unfortunatly most terriers would have no clue what to do as too many are far to soft and bait orientated....no, a terrier should not be aggressive but should have a fiery terrier temperament. IMO a youngster shouldn't have been sparred either...your poor gal! Not all terriers are expected to spar.....Border Terriers as an example :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brighthelm Posted August 26, 2012 Share Posted August 26, 2012 Traditionally terriers can be asked to face off, just to see if they are on their toes...not many judges do this, and those that do are usually terrier people- done correctly it can be quite effective, although I too have had dogs that couldn't give a damn! And dogs that just want to play! But it should not be a sparring exercise...I would not be concerned about Amber's non- reaction because, as I said hardly any judges ask for this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Megz- Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 It's wonderful to watch when done well. I was taught as a child handler how to do it effectively except the Foxy I showed did it best with my families Cairn Terrier so my mum or dad would turn the Cairn for me to get the Foxy on his toes. I watched the Sydney Royal judge face off some breeds in 2011 and it was truly amazing to watch, Terriers with spunk under absolute control and looking fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smisch Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 Traditionally terriers can be asked to face off, just to see if they are on their toes...not many judges do this, and those that do are usually terrier people- done correctly it can be quite effective, although I too have had dogs that couldn't give a damn! And dogs that just want to play! But it should not be a sparring exercise...I would not be concerned about Amber's non- reaction because, as I said hardly any judges ask for this... I'm not concerened at all about her behavior in fact the opposite I'm proud that she didn't react espically to the 2 dogs that nearly had an incident.. Like I said we have trained her to accept all breeds as she lives with fluffies and goes to work with the OH and spends a lot of time at agility off leash.. I know now that it's not supposed to be a sign if aggression but behaviours like eyeballing can lead to issues.. I'm really unhappy with what the judge did and I still don't understand why she chose to do it, it felt unsafe as she only merely said bring them in and spar them.. There was one dog getting very much in on this situation and then it went as far as 2 dogs almost having an issue... Had I known the situation I would have politely excused myself from the ring... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 She was wanting to see gameness in Terriers,she was judging fr what traits the breed should show ,a good terrier judge will ask for this & it isn't asked enough in my view. All the dogs i handled had no issue playing with other breeds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I can see the point in why it's done... but given situations can vary in each dog (for example Amber living with small fluffies and competing in agility, would NOT be asked in any way to ever spar) it can ONLY be a consideration in measurement of temperament, and not a conclusion based on whether they perform. If it's imperative to breed temperament, and people are saying that there is too much softness in terriers and their temperament is being compromised, then pushing for duel titled dogs in breeding (or a dog that has competed in a task related to it's working origin), where applicable, might be a worthy consideration. (please note, i state where applicable, because many breeds can no longer be asked to perform any of their original tasks) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceilidh Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I also think there should be more judges asking for terriers to face off! But I also think that if an exhibitor does not know how to face off their dog safely they should politely inform the judge that because of their lack of experience they don't wish to participate. You have a terrier, treat it as such. If this practise makes you "really upset and disgusted" then maybe a terrier is not the breed for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 won't that mean a break-away in working and family/show lines though? A feisty terrier temperament wouldn't be suitable in most households, so there are either fewer bred in total, or some are bred "softer". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 won't that mean a break-away in working and family/show lines though? A feisty terrier temperament wouldn't be suitable in most households, so there are either fewer bred in total, or some are bred "softer". Breeding a "pet temperament" into a breed that is contrary to what the breed was designed for is wrong. Terriers were bred for specific purposes and just being a pet was not one of them. Of course some dogs would have a softer temperament and would make nice pets but they shouldn't be bred specfically to produce that softer temperament. Most terriers breeds should be fiesty and not social butterflies with other dogs. If that isn't what you want get a breed, bred for a different temperament. Everyone these days seems to expect the same behaviour from every dog and blames the owner for the dog not fitting in to society but centuries have gone into breeding dogs to chase, herd, fetch, guard and kill and expecting them all to react the same in every situation and need the same training is nuts. Breeds should retain their original temperament even if it means their numbers are then restricted to a small handful of fanciers who understand and respect the breed for it's original purpose, and they are never kept as just "pets". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayly Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Have you seen the latest edition of All Terriers Online? It has a section on sparring in Irish Terriers and explains it better than I can. An Irish, and plenty of other terriers, never look as good as they do when they are facing off, but it has to be done in a controlled manner! Ruby is a fantastic family pet, I can bring dogs or puppies of other breeds into the yard and she accepts them immediately, and she lives with her daughter, but she will face off. I don't think that a dog that will spar is necessarily going to be a bad pet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I know terrier old breeders that lament the fact his isn't done any more as it used to be common and that many terriers have lost the fiery nature to take on all comers. And lets remember vermin killing isn't just a Terrier thing. Miniature Schnauzers where breed to be Ratters,Dachshunds go to ground for vermin ,You have the Sighthounds So many breeds where breed for similiar work & no one thinks twice about them. A good Terrier in nature doesn,t mean it will kill all things after all many terriers that do there thing at home come straight out the ring With other Terriers. The only Terrier that i would truly take upmost precautions would be the Kerry Blue ,they are the Terrier of terriers BUT they are also very trainable & can be extremely social. Facing off is about showing gameness & terrier pride not about killing . Our Beddies & Kerries lived happily in our household but our Kerry girl was a very proud Terrier in the ring . Infact at most shows you will see varying Terriers facing each other in breed/group ine ups so bringing the selected breeds to the middle is no different . I aslo have gundogs & it amazes me how many gundogs can run past a bird in the showring without a second glance ,very sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I also think there should be more judges asking for terriers to face off! But I also think that if an exhibitor does not know how to face off their dog safely they should politely inform the judge that because of their lack of experience they don't wish to participate. You have a terrier, treat it as such. If this practise makes you "really upset and disgusted" then maybe a terrier is not the breed for you. So many are now just watered down, gutless shells of what they used to be, all in the name of "family pet". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yurrugar Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) Try having an English Toy Terrier in the Toy ring. LOL. They are a toy but must retain their terrier attitude. Mine do and it is easy when in a line up surrounded by the Chinese Crested and the Griffon. Not that the ETT should be sparred, but they like a good game and show a lot of interest in the other breeds around them. I had a bitch last year that snatched a low flying sparrow whilst doing a work out. Fit for Function. Edited September 6, 2012 by yurrugar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Megz- Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 I aslo have gundogs & it amazes me how many gundogs can run past a bird in the showring without a second glance ,very sad I wish my gundog ignored birds, would make my life so much easier lol - that being said I remember so clearly in my memory the day we did a triangle came back and the judge went to get his attention but the dog turned and pointed at a bloody butterfly, we both burst out laughing until I couldn't budge him to retake my place in line hahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now