High Prey Drive Foster Dog With Attitude!

[arliespaz]

Hello everyone, I am new to this forum, but looking for a few tips for training my excitable Bull Arab foster dog! She seems to be going through an "I'm a bratty teenager" stage. She is very well behaved and listens well, although sometimes she just decides she is going to GO CRAZY! I can see it the second its going to start, and I try to get on top of it as quick as possible. For example.. If I am in my room cuddling with my husband, she will deliberately try to make me correct her.. ie. getting attention whether it is positive or negative. She will step on my bed and when I tell her off her body language changes. Sometimes she will test me by barking at me or jumping up on my bed and running around my room in a frenzy until I correct her and kick her out or correct her and put her in a down stay for a prolonged period of time till she settles. This doesn't happen every time, only sometimes. Sometimes if I get up and correct her right as she's starting to show me that body language she will attempt to bite me. If I ignore her pleading she does the same thing. If my husband is on the couch and she wants attention, if he pushes her away or tells her no, sometimes she will snap at him. My roommate was home for 3 weeks, and this is when this all started happening. He lets her walk all over him. She listens very well to every command except for off. She just HATES that one. Also, sometimes her prey drive kicks in super hard and she takes off to run around the neighbors yards. She knows how to open the door, and will not attempt it if I am able to give her a correction. She is never gone for long, and when she did that at the beginning she would not come back, but now she leaves for a minute or two and when I get sight of her and call her and she comes bolting back. Another thing is that when certain dogs tell her she is playing too rough she starts to get a bit aggressive with them and I have to stop the playtime. It doesn't happen with all dogs... She also likes to step on feet and paw at my legs sometimes. I started teaching her shake a paw and she doesn't do that as much now. I also push her off me and grumble and walk away. I think she's starting to get it. Apart from those annoying things she is pretty good. Not perfect by any means, but I really want to get her to a good level for being adopted. She has killed a cat before and children and small dogs were always SUPER INTERESTING to her. She is really good with children now, and doesn't try to go after small dogs and cats when I am in control of her.

Edited August 23, 2012 by arliespaz

[Cosmolo]

Does the group you are fostering for have a behaviourist or trainer that can come to see you? Has the dog been behaviourally assessed before coming into foster care?

[persephone]

is she really going to be suitable for rehoming?

Ah..I see two very experienced folks reading...

*steps away from the thread*

[arliespaz]

They are in Karratha and she got flown in to Perth where I am. I'm not sure, but I don't think they do, as they never mentioned it to me when I got her. She was assessed, and I was aware she was a tough case. No-one wanted to take a difficult dog, and I was the only one willing to take on this challenge. She has improved greatly since the day she came to me, which was only 2 months ago.

[Caesars mum]

Does the group you are fostering for have a behaviourist or trainer that can come to see you? Has the dog been behaviourally assessed before coming into foster care?

Agree 100% with this.

you have on you hands an adolescent very large breed and she will be testing you for top dog position. Unless you are very experienced with large breeds you really need to get a behaviourist in to assist you. this will spiral out of control quicklyif not dealt with by an experienced large dog behaviourist, especially as she is already mouthing/biting.

[Cheyd]

hey arliespaz, welcome to the forum :)

Sounds like your foster keeps you on your toes!

I am in WA too and have my own rescue and we work with a couple of fantastic behaviourists - if you want some details send me a PM

[aussielover]

I think you should contact your rescue group and get this dog assessed by a behaviourist. It sounds like you are doing a good job but need a bit of extra help as the dog is showing some very undesirable behaviourist like nipping at your husband and thinking about biting you.

In the meantime I would restrict her privileges eg. don't allow her on the bed or couch at all, lock her out of your room when you are having cuddles with your husband (maybe in her crate if she has one), keep her confined to her own yard (don't let her run around the neighbours yards), keep her on a long line if you take her to dog parks etc.

If you are seriously worried about her biting you, I would keep her on a lead in the house so you don't have to get close to her to remove her from undesirable situations (eg telling her to get off the bed or couch)

[Vickie]

For example.. If I am in my room cuddling with my husband, she will deliberately try to make me correct her..

I agree with the others, best to get some help with her from a professional. The above sentence in particular is a worry for me. Honestly, dogs do not think like that. You may be misunderstanding other things as well, so better to be safe than sorry, especially if you feel she may be a threat to you, children or other animals.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Vickie

[corvus]

For example.. If I am in my room cuddling with my husband, she will deliberately try to make me correct her..

Honestly, dogs do not think like that.

Well... a reinforcement is a reinforcement. My Erik has done some pretty astonishing things in order to get me to call him over. Like picking fights with my other dog, for example. And that's not even the worst of it. I know what the reinforcer is because if I stop supplying it the behaviour escalates like a classic extinction curve. Erik's extinction curves are typically so long that I have rarely waited one out all the way to the end. If I cut the unwanted behaviour off before it starts and reward with the same reinforcer, the behaviour disappears all together and he starts orienting to me when he would normally start the problem behaviour. As far as cuddling triggering it goes... It's not unheard of. In fact, it would fit right in with "virtual separation anxiety". Erik is good at that one, too. He knows when I am unavailable to him. Walk into the bathroom, Erik starts barking. I'm not as responsive to him when I'm in there. He also gets barky when I'm doing chores in the kitchen, and when I'm on the phone. It's not like he thinks "She's on the phone, she's not paying enough attention to me, need to act up to get attention again." It's more like "She's disconnected from me. What if I need her? Anything could happen! What's that noise??"

These difficult dogs need a pretty sharp handler. I can't imagine what a horror Erik would be living with an average family.

[Nekhbet]

you're giving her way too much attention, she's an adolescent, settled in and is now being a typical cheeky teenager.

Don't feed the behavior, I find with dogs like this less is more. The trick is instead of correcting curb the behavior by channeling all that energy into something constructive off the bat. Oh and dont push bull arabs they're happy to use their teeth when they mature.

you can email me if you want some more tailored advice [email protected]

[Vickie]

For example.. If I am in my room cuddling with my husband, she will deliberately try to make me correct her..

Honestly, dogs do not think like that.

These difficult dogs need a pretty sharp handler. I can't imagine what a horror Erik would be living with an average family.

In a way, you're lucky to have such an incredibly difficult dog. It allows you to test & apply all your theories.

I don't get that opportunity with my 5. None of them have ever deliberately tried to get me to correct them, although they frequently try to get me to reward them. They are incredibly boring & normal.

Anyway...back to the actual topic...

Edited August 23, 2012 by Vickie

[arliespaz]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I have been working hard with her, but I need just that little bit of extra knowledge to fix her right up! She is a great dog, and I want her to be able to be ok in an average household. Sometimes I just wish she was normal, but then I would not learn so much! The next one is going to be way easier! I can't believe how much she has changed me as a doggy mom (for the better of course!). I have been regularly kicking her out of my room just because I can. I will send her out with a yummy stuffed kong and shut my door for however long I want. She is never allowed on any of our furniture, and especially not allowed on my bed! I keep her on a drag leash in the house as a just in case thing, although it is rare that I have to grab it, as her behavior is not consistent. I think my roommate is really not helping her separation anxiety. If she's sitting in her crate crying for any reason, he will look at her and be like awww and then start crying along with her and laugh then walk away. It is driving me insane that he does that! If she barks in there and I am not home he lets her out then chains her outside for hours and hours on end and without anything fun to do. I give her a bone outside so she can do something while she's out there! I have someone coming to see her in a week or so, as a favor to the people I foster with! Which is really nice, and I can't wait! I was speaking with him on the phone last night and he was thinking of putting her on meds for separation anxiety just until we get it under control... What are your thoughts about that? It just seems like it would be possible to do it without the meds.. Also, if anyone is in Perth and has big dogs she can come play with please let me know!

[Are You Serious Jo]

My thoughts are that this dog should not go to an average home, she will need a home with someone experienced with dogs with this type of temperament. You really need professional help with her, the behaviours you describe are not good.

[persephone]

..maybe I am being over cautious... I believe ANY dog , and in particular a large dog , that has nipped/bitten /been pushy should be assessed by a professional person before being considered for rehoming.

In WA there is someone who has been mentioned a lot on D O L LINK HERE

If I am in my room cuddling with my husband, she will deliberately try to make me correct her.. ie. getting attention whether it is positive or negative. She will step on my bed and when I tell her off her body language changes. Sometimes she will test me by barking at me or jumping up on my bed and running around my room in a frenzy

Sometimes if I get up and correct her right as she's starting to show me that body language she will attempt to bite me. If I ignore her pleading she does the same thing. If my husband is on the couch and she wants attention, if he pushes her away or tells her no, sometimes she will snap at him.

She has killed a cat before and children and small dogs were always SUPER INTERESTING to her. She is really good with children now, and doesn't try to go after small dogs and cats when I am in control of her.

as her behavior is not consistent.

..and she is not a puppy ... these are learned habits .

Edited August 24, 2012 by persephone

[arliespaz]

I know the lady I foster for is thoroughly interviewing everyone who calls about her. I as well have been talking to them to let them know exactly what she is like. She also will not let her go to a house with cats and small children, just for safety's sake. I can't wait till the behaviorist comes to see her!.. I realize this is not good and this is why I am asking for help!

[koalathebear]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I have been working hard with her, but I need just that little bit of extra knowledge to fix her right up! She is a great dog, and I want her to be able to be ok in an average household. Sometimes I just wish she was normal, but then I would not learn so much! The next one is going to be way easier! I can't believe how much she has changed me as a doggy mom (for the better of course!).

I know what you mean :) I also agree with corvus - the difficult dogs can teach us so much more about dogs and ourselves. I have one difficult dog, one easy dog and an easy foster and because of my difficult dog I feel a great deal of understanding for people who also have difficult dogs. I think it makes it easier to understand why some people have to work harder to get a dog to behave a certain way than other dogs. I'm glad you're looking into getting a behaviourist - sometimes, just having someone like that there to observe and comment about how things happen in the house can be hugely illuminating. Good luck with it all.

[Every Greyhound]

There are several rescue groups who are greyhound specific rescues who may have some advice to help too, given they would have dealt with prey drive mthat some retired racing greyhounds have, like other sight hounds. Greyhound Angels, Greyhound Adoptions WA, GAPWA. Feel free to check out their contact details on our website, they are all very helpful people and I'm sure they'll have some great advice too :)

Every Greyhound

Email me

"Its not about the people behind it, but the dogs in front of it"

My link

[Wobbly]

I have no advice, other than to reiterate that already given - see a good behaviourist. He or she will give you the best tools to help your dog and you.

While I have no advice for you, I do understand exactly what you're going through, my dog was the same when I got her from the pound - probably why she was left there to begin with.

Without writing an essay on it (it's a deep, complex subject) in dealing with the problem I think my automatic behavioural responses changed more than my dog's automatic responses did. I was previously quite soft natured and tended toward analysis rather than reaction. Which in a lot of situations is good, compassion and analysis are great qualities to have. But I used it in all situations, as my only response type, and it's simply not appropriate behaviour for some situations. Some circumstances - dealing with a strong willed dog, and also in dealing with people sometimes too, require immediate assertive responses, not slow empathic analysis. Dogs are such simple creatures, the way they force us to respond simply, honestly and most importantly IMMEDIATELY can be a good lesson for those of us who can be too analytical, to slow to respond. My automatic behavioural responses have shifted from a slow introspection toward a stronger immediate response now, with my dog, but also in other areas of my life. It's been a positive change for me - as well as making me a more effective pack leader it's bought better balance to other areas of my life - most notably in human-human interactions that require a fast decisive response.

I think what ended up happening for me is that playing the Sergeant Major role with my dog so often, I grew into that role, over time it became real rather than just an act, and then bled over into all of my personal interactions. I suspect that change in me is what's made her a (mostly!) good dog ultimately. Probably an owner who was naturally immediately assertive wouldn't have had issues with her for more than a few days or weeks, where for me it took quite a lot longer.

We seek to modify our dog's responses, but I think maybe people don't realise how much of a two way street that really is - to modify the dog's behaviour we are forced to modify our own behaviour and responses quite drastically sometimes.

My other belief, which directly stems from all this - apart from a strong willed dog forcing you to become a better pack leader (aka a more immediately, strongly responsive human), is that these strong willed dogs turn out to be the best of them all. These are the dogs that will never become neurotic or fearful, they are more playful, more curious, more driven, more responsive to you - the best of everything you want from a dog. If you do the work with this dog, he will be training you to be a good leader just as much as you are going to be training him to be a good dog. I don't think you'll ever want to give him away after that, it's a powerful bond when you are so deeply changed by a dog.

I'm not sure if that makes sense, I hope it does. It's just my understanding of how my relationship with my dog has shaped me, far more than it's shaped her, she's just responding to my behaviour, nothing much really changed in her psyche like it did in mine, only her learnt responses changed. It may not apply to other people but I thought I'd add in case it does make some sense to you or anyone else reading.

[Weasels]

I have someone coming to see her in a week or so, as a favor to the people I foster with! Which is really nice, and I can't wait! I was speaking with him on the phone last night and he was thinking of putting her on meds for separation anxiety just until we get it under control... What are your thoughts about that? It just seems like it would be possible to do it without the meds.. Also, if anyone is in Perth and has big dogs she can come play with please let me know!

Be careful and use your own judgement. There is at least one trainer in WA who, from what I've heard, recommends meds as the first method for most problems. Just go with your gut, and if you are at all uncomfortable don't hesiatate to seek a second opinion :)