What Should Happen To Dogs Brought Into The World By Byb?

[tdierikx]

There are going to be "good" and "bad" operators in every angle of this debate - whether they be registered, BYB, or commercial breeders.

Unfortunately quite a lot of people will actually put more thought and research into buying a television than when selecting a living, breathing creature to join their family unit - and until that changes, this debate will continue to rage on...

In a perfect world, no living creature would have to suffer to meet a market demand - but we really don't live in a perfect world, and there are so many different lobby groups with so many different agendas in this debate, that I don't see any reasonable solutions coming in the near future.

Whilst I don't support anyone using animals to breed solely for profit, I also don't see an issue with unregistered (or even registered) breeders producing crossbreed dogs every now and then either (as long as they have the wellbeing of their animals and the offspring as their top priority). I don't support the making up of stupid crossbreed names and the touting of "hybrid vigour" - proper research would out that particular myth... hey Mita, maybe you know of some of that sort of research?

Dogs are not robots and can't be "made to order" - no matter how many precautions we take, we are really leaving most of the hard stuff up to Mother Nature there. Yes, genetic screening of breeding stock can avoid some of the worst problems from arising in most cases, but it only takes one small throwback gene for an issue to arise that may not have been evident for generations, no?

What sets the "good" from the "bad" breeders, IMHO, is how they deal with any issues that arise down the track for one of their puppy buyers...

T.

[Little Gifts]

If you are not responsible and concerned enough about your 'pet dog' to desex it then you shouldn't own one in the first place. If you aren't prepared to interview and advise prospective adopters before selling them your 'pet dogs' then you shouldn't breed them.

There will always be accidental litters, dogs requiring rehome and the like but this is my perfect world for 'pet dogs'. I don't think it is asking too much either given few people of pet buying age would be ignorant about how babies are made. Saying I didn't know my bitch was in season is an excuse. Saying I didn't know my male could get out of the yard is also an excuse. Saying my dog would make pretty babies is just stupidity. And don't get me started on those rare blue staffies that will fund your wedding day!

[Little Gifts]

I might sound like I'm against all registered breeders but I'm not, I just think there is many that are no better than puppy farms and there are byb's like that also, but there are some great ethical registered and byb's breeders.

But Rascal who and where are they? Why are they not leading the industry/public towards their cause? Why are their names not commonly known and referred to in say pet shops proud to sell their quality 'product'? Why are their no media stories on the great work they are doing?

Until the number of amazing, beautiful and deserving dogs (pure or cross breed) who are dying every single day in every state of this country reduces significantly I cannot support any deliberate back yard breeding, puppy farming or selling of animals through pet shops. It is simply not necessary. Nor is it in a dog's best interests. It should not be considered an easy way to make money or supplement an income.

[moosmum]

I might sound like I'm against all registered breeders but I'm not, I just think there is many that are no better than puppy farms and there are byb's like that also, but there are some great ethical registered and byb's breeders.

But Rascal who and where are they? Why are they not leading the industry/public towards their cause? Why are their names not commonly known and referred to in say pet shops proud to sell their quality 'product'? Why are their no media stories on the great work they are doing?

Until the number of amazing, beautiful and deserving dogs (pure or cross breed) who are dying every single day in every state of this country reduces significantly I cannot support any deliberate back yard breeding, puppy farming or selling of animals through pet shops. It is simply not necessary. Nor is it in a dog's best interests. It should not be considered an easy way to make money or supplement an income.

1stly,Ethical BYBers would be highly unlikely to sell through pet shops.

2ndly,there are so many BYB'ers .With out representation from a body concerned with improvement with in that "industry" (for lack of a better word)who is qualified to find and promote those striving to improve and breed for purpose rather than profit when the words "back yard breeder" have become such a taboo? few are going to openly proclaim it.

3rdly,why are they not leading the industry /public towards their cause? Its not that simple.They may well be doing just that, promoting responsible breeding practice,just not specifiying by whom!

[persephone]

I do know someone who breeds a few litters of fluffies to sell.

These puppies are much in demand ,by word of mouth , as they are beautifully socialised, happy and healthy, vacc'd, chipped ,vet checked .. kept with several adult dogs all of their 8/10 weeks , and much loved and fussed over as babies. They are indoor/outdoor ..via a doggy door .

I've never known the parents to be ill or have any probs . They are kinda like ragdoll cats .. when picked up..they just flop and enjoy ... it's.the way they have been treated since birth. Homes often stay in touch ...as pup grows.

I wish that a desexing contract or something was done ... but .....

[mantis]

I think there is a difference between BYB's & puppy farmers. BYB's only have a few litters, but puppy farmers push out litter after litter as fast as they can & their dogs are usually kept in horrible conditions, because they are only doing it for money & don't care about the dogs welfare.

[moosmum]

I think if pedigree breeders were openly permitted to cross breed,the organisation of registries and their more responsible outlook would filter down to influence better practices and responsibility in the general population.

Recognition of purbreds predictable traits would become more widespread and pedigrees valued for the information they impart and theirr purpose more readily understood.

Edited August 23, 2012 by moosmum

[Steph M]

I really hate the idea of puppy farms and the like as much as anyone, but feel the bottom line is it should be illegal to sell or buy a pet undesexed outside breeding and the show ring etc, and then you're obviously registered, monitored and there needs to be a definite breeders charter, where if you don't follow the guidelines, you risk being stripped of your rights to breed and sell animals.

If every pet shop puppy or FTGH puppy was sold sterile the problem would be largely decreased, sadly a lot of BYB source animals from classifieds, pet shops etc too, so with any luck this would make life harder for them, make them easier to catch out and ultimately shut down.

I know it would be a nightmare to monitor or enforce, but pet shops especially have so much to answer for. The amount of 'moodles', 'pugaliers' and 'spanadors' etc in pounds is a crying shame. I would like to see them banned all together, but in the mean time why are they being sold entire? It's a really disgusting way of ensuring their greedy businesses and others like them continue.

As for the existing ones, I think they should be let live out their lives. If a puppy farm is raided tomorrow by an organisation, I'd like to see the critters that can be homed, desexed and that done so. The adopter needs to know the risks, that they may not be a healthy dog forever, they may well not get old, but they'll love you as long as they can, and surely they deserve a shot. Seems a shame to waste a chance to educate people too!

[moosmum]

And who will write this charter,decide who is granted license,and police it?

Who will you trust to decide policy and direction to choose what dogs people can own and who has the right to breed?

Edited August 23, 2012 by moosmum

[Steph M]

And who will write this charter,decide who is granted license,and police it?

Who will you trust to decide policy and direction to choose what dogs people can own and who has the right to breed?

that's just part of the issue, isn't it?

it'd need to be a panel of independent, unbiased, knowledgeable and sensible people from inside and outside the breeding community, surely.

Wouldn't want to leave it to chance and have it become a farce like BSL.

[Sheridan]

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1345719758[/url]' post='5938131']

And who will write this charter,decide who is granted license,and police it?

Who will you trust to decide policy and direction to choose what dogs people can own and who has the right to breed?

that's just part of the issue, isn't it?

it'd need to be a panel of independent, unbiased, knowledgeable and sensible people from inside and outside the breeding community, surely.

Wouldn't want to leave it to chance and have it become a farce like BSL.

And given people are people, farce is a given.

[moosmum]

And who will write this charter,decide who is granted license,and police it?

Who will you trust to decide policy and direction to choose what dogs people can own and who has the right to breed?

that's just part of the issue, isn't it?

it'd need to be a panel of independent, unbiased, knowledgeable and sensible people from inside and outside the breeding community, surely.

Wouldn't want to leave it to chance and have it become a farce like BSL.

Would they be elected from the general population? appointed by an individual? Who would this body be answerable to?

[Steph M]

And who will write this charter,decide who is granted license,and police it?

Who will you trust to decide policy and direction to choose what dogs people can own and who has the right to breed?

that's just part of the issue, isn't it?

it'd need to be a panel of independent, unbiased, knowledgeable and sensible people from inside and outside the breeding community, surely.

Wouldn't want to leave it to chance and have it become a farce like BSL.

Would they be elected from the general population? appointed by an individual? Who would this body be answerable to?

Woah woah, I wish I had all the answers! It just seems like leaving it to the government is not working, they don't have as much of a vested interest as industry people do.

Plus they make a lot of money out of pounds and rescue organisations paying taxes when these things go downhill, so my thinking was an assembly of people who have reason to better things for animals.

You're right though, human farce is likely, but I can be optimistic, right?! :D

[tdierikx]

Woah woah, I wish I had all the answers! It just seems like leaving it to the government is not working, they don't have as much of a vested interest as industry people do.

Who do you think advise government on the topic? There are already many lobby groups and committees all saying they have a vested interest... RSPCA, AWL, ANKC, Animal Lib, PETA, PIAA, etc...

T.

[Sheridan]

Woah woah, I wish I had all the answers! It just seems like leaving it to the government is not working, they don't have as much of a vested interest as industry people do.

Plus they make a lot of money out of pounds and rescue organisations paying taxes when these things go downhill, so my thinking was an assembly of people who have reason to better things for animals.

You're right though, human farce is likely, but I can be optimistic, right?! :D

No point in being optimistic if you know who the vested interest people are. Not all of them like dogs, not all of them have dogs best interest at heart.

[LizT]

Once upon time....in some instances...on occassion...when I was a child....BYB dogs were given away or sold for a very small sum....as they were often "oops" litters and not purposefully breed. Sadly many BYB dogs are PURPOSE BREED and sold as either "DDs" or purebreds costing nearly as much as a Registered health checked dog does.

[LizT]

I really hate the idea of puppy farms and the like as much as anyone, but feel the bottom line is it should be illegal to sell or buy a pet undesexed outside breeding and the show ring etc, and then you're obviously registered, monitored and there needs to be a definite breeders charter, where if you don't follow the guidelines, you risk being stripped of your rights to breed and sell animals.

If every pet shop puppy or FTGH puppy was sold sterile the problem would be largely decreased, sadly a lot of BYB source animals from classifieds, pet shops etc too, so with any luck this would make life harder for them, make them easier to catch out and ultimately shut down.

I know it would be a nightmare to monitor or enforce, but pet shops especially have so much to answer for. The amount of 'moodles', 'pugaliers' and 'spanadors' etc in pounds is a crying shame. I would like to see them banned all together, but in the mean time why are they being sold entire? It's a really disgusting way of ensuring their greedy businesses and others like them continue.

As for the existing ones, I think they should be let live out their lives. If a puppy farm is raided tomorrow by an organisation, I'd like to see the critters that can be homed, desexed and that done so. The adopter needs to know the risks, that they may not be a healthy dog forever, they may well not get old, but they'll love you as long as they can, and surely they deserve a shot. Seems a shame to waste a chance to educate people too!

I for one, (and many others, both Professional ie. Vets and Breeders) do not advocate infant desexing.

[Aphra]

I'd actively oppose any further legislation in the area. One because I don't believe that more and more punitive legislation is going to make a difference, and because pretty much all of the animal welfare legislation we have got recently has been dreadful, poorly thought-out, knee-jerk policy heavily influenced by large organisations with their own agendas.

I'm not in favour of compulsory desexing either. I'm probably a bit of a libertarian and don't feel that we can solve social problems caused by a few people, by making life difficult for everyone else.

I am very much in favour of heavily subsidised desexing. Mt Alexander Shire in Victoria has offered low-cost desexing for residents, and it has had a huge impact on their stray cat population.

Some reductions in numbers have been as much as 85% in some of the busier months, for example, in March 2008 there were 38 kittens brought into the shelter in comparison to only 5 in March 2009. http://www.ndn.org.au/files/SummitProceedings/Veronica%20and%20Luke%20-%20Mount%20Alexander%20Shire.pdf

If only Ballarat Council had spent the $100,000 they wasted on VCAT trying to kill one dog, on subsidising desexing for hundreds of other dogs.

I don't think backyard breeders are ever going to go away, it's a practice as old as domestication of dogs. I think the answer has to lie in helping people make better choices about where they get their dogs from, helping them understand why health tests are important, giving them some tools to help them choose wisely and make it easier for them to get nice dogs from reputable places than from puppy farms and pet shops.

And although it's probably anathema to pedigreed breeders, perhaps some advice and education for those people who are producing a couple of litters of fluffy puppies in their own homes might be useful. If they're going to do it anyway, as they are, they might as well do it as well as they can and produce healthy, well socialised puppies.

Even in the few years I've been doing rescue I've noticed much more awareness of the issues from people who talk to us; more people are actively choosing rescue dogs because they want to make a difference.

I really hate the idea of puppy farms and the like as much as anyone, but feel the bottom line is it should be illegal to sell or buy a pet undesexed outside breeding and the show ring etc, and then you're obviously registered, monitored and there needs to be a definite breeders charter, where if you don't follow the guidelines, you risk being stripped of your rights to breed and sell animals.