What Should Happen To Dogs Brought Into The World By Byb?

[Guest donatella]

Some Registered Breeders are no better then some BYBs tell the truth. It's a fine line. Of course there are some cretin BYBs who should be stripped of all animal right and there are some Reg Breeders who are in it for the $$'s so you need to do your proper research and dodge the land mines out there.

[Christina]

When I was a child in the 50's people didn't desex their pets so much. It was not so readily & cheaply available as it is now. Not the same education about it all either.

It was accepted that some dogs got loose by accident & had a mongrel litter. These pups were usually given away. Sometimes they may have gone to an obliging pet shop & sold for a small cost but there were not many pups in pet shops. Some were drowned at birth by horrid people.

There was no mass breeding mongrels for profit. Now it is big business.

Every dog that comes into this world deserves a good & loving home. The only dogs that should be PTS are those that are suffering from severe illness/health conditions or aggressive temperament IMO. Not all carelessly bred dogs have issues either. Genetics are not always obedient & predictable as much as we wish it were so.

However I do sometimes live in dreamland.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Christina

[Leema]

I think all puppies should be microchipped with details on the breeder, and the breeder be responsible for puppies they produce for life. This legislation would only need enforcement of microchipping, which is obviously lacking in some states as is.

I wrote more about this idea here: http://leemakennels.com/blog/dogs-and-politics/62/

[benshiva]

Yes i have read that thread. I was just curious what people think should have been the fate of that dog instead? put down at birth?

What about accidental litters? rather than BYB who intentionally breed to make money out of it...

NOT BRED IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

If a person wants to breed dogs then they damn well should learn about that breed and do all relevant health testing to try and prevent the heartache that happened to that family in that thread. It makes my blood boil!

[Greytmate]

I guess my question is this - if everyone is advised to not buy these puppies, what should happen to them? Is the consensus that they should be put down? I mean if someone can't afford a pup from a a registered and reputable breeder and it's cheaper to get one from a BYB, or in most cases its about the same price to adopt, isn't it ok to give a dog a loving home? No matter what it's potential complications might be?

If you adopt a dog from an ethical rescue organisation the price you pay will cover micro chipping, vaccination and desexing and you know that you are not supporting the backyard breeding industry. Adopting from rescue is much better value for money than buying a byb pup.

I understand the turmoil and heartache that would result from (preventable?) health complications in a family pet, but better to have loved and lost than never loved at all right?

No. People will love the dog that they get so it's much better they get it from a reputable source.

If everyone was suddenly educated and decided not to buy these BYB puppies, they would end up being given away for free and the BYB might decide it's not worth breeding anymore.

I would always recommend people buy puppies from registered ethical breeders, or adult dogs from ethical rescue organisation that assess the dogs properly. That way they have the best chance of the dog being what they want, and they haven't contributed any cash to BYB or encouraged them in any way.

[Bjelkier]

I understand the turmoil and heartache that would result from (preventable?) health complications in a family pet, but better to have loved and lost than never loved at all right?

I don't agree at all.

I had a puppy die from a genetic condition at the age of 10 weeks. It was one of the most heart breaking experiences I've EVER had and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[Guest]

I heard of wat was a real accident years ago when a reg'd breeder mated their bitch as intended. So no shock wen pregnancy was confirmed. More so a good thing. Then as the pups were coming out there was a huge WTF?!?!? Wen pups were born that even at birth were clearly noted as not being pure or looking like how they were ment to. From memory this person bred pugs as well and it was evident that a male pug had gotten to this large breed bitch somehow n managed to successfully mate. I know all pups were raised correctly n loved as much as the planned litter. When old enough the X bred ones were given away as pets to family friends. The person that I knew that got one had hoped it would stay more pug sized n it certainly looked like it would. Isaw her regularly n she was small breed sized. Then afew mth went by b4 I saw her again n suddenly she looked like a mastiff in size!!!!

This was around 8-10 years ago n I'm not sure if bits a or DNA testing was around for testing if a dog is pure so I can't advise on what happened to the purebred pups. If they were proven to be pure n given papers as per normal or not. I do know my friends dog went on to be a service dog for her wheelchair bound disabled son n while he thought he was getting a lap dog to sit on his lap while he got around in his chair this worked out better.

But yerrrr that's prob a accidental mating story not many would have considered!!!

I know I shouldn't laugh but could u just imagine the breeders face?

P.s I remember being told that as the 1st whoops pup was coming out due to it being so much smaller then the others n of a strange darker colour it was assumed to be a pup that was long dead n had started to rot - then it started moving n the freaked out breeder hurried to get said pup out of the sack while trying to process wat was wrong with the strange colored tiny pup in his hands. I THINK there were 3 accident pups in the litter, or it may have been 3 that were obviously not pure, or had the same coloring ect I realy can't remember the finer details but it is a story that stuck in my head all this time. Damn cheeky pug!!!!!

[sandgrubber]

Ideally if people stopped buying BYB puppies, people would no longer breed them :)

Quality pedigree breeders don't produce enough pups to satisfy market demand. I don't know what percent of pups come from BYB's but I'd guess it's 10-20%. Remove that fraction and the market would compensate:

- Pedigree dog prices would rise and low income people would be less able to afford the investment.

- More people would end up with cross-bred oops puppies, or puppy-farm bred DD's.

- Many BYB's would convert to being registered breeders . . . and continue on their way, but producing pups with pedigrees.

The BYB vs. registered breeder dichotomy is an oversimplification. There are some people who the show world would call back-yarders who pay proper attention to health. Say I wanted to breed a non-brachy line of pugs or old-style GSD's, and I found my best prospective breeding stock among non-registered dogs. The quest for improved health would force me to join the ranks of those who get called BYB's. On the other hand, the pedigree dog world is not without disreputable breeders. The Balfours (http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/239070-breeders-sentenced-in-cruelty-case/) were pedigree breeders, and he was a show judge! Many of the large puppy farms in the USA (I use the word to mean places that raise dogs in cages and keep hundreds of dogs, producing puppies on a highly commercial basis) produce pedigree pups, with the blessing of the AKC.

[koalathebear]

Hoover our second dog is from a registered WKC breeder but Elbie, our first dog, was a freebie from a family in Goulburn whose Kelpie wasn't desexed and impregnated the neighbour's border collie. The neighbour didn't want the puppies so she took them in and looked after them until 8 weeks and then gave them all away. Elbie came to us all wormy, ringwormy and bratty. People say that we were wrong and that we should have waited for Elbie to be taken in by a rescue before adopting him but while I would never get a dog from a BYB again - given the choice, I'd still go back and get Elbie.

I foster for a rescue group now so I feel even more strongly about responsible breeding but it really is very unrealistic to say that if all people stopped getting dogs from BYBs that there would be no BYB dogs. Some people just don't care about desexing or don't want to desex their dogs and even if they don't have homes in which to place the dogs, they'd get rid of them in other ways whether it was drowning them or just dumping them. That's even easier than raising them to 8 weeks and then rehoming them. It's not Elbie's fault he came from a bad start and he's a much beloved member of our family now and enjoys obedience, agility and chilling out with his pack. The fact is, there are a lot of unwanted puppies out there and if people can offer them a good home, I think that they shouldn't be judged for doing so... I know that that's not the 'right' thing to say on DOL, but it's how I feel.

Edited August 22, 2012 by koalathebear

[Kavik]

Ideally if people stopped buying BYB puppies, people would no longer breed them :)

Quality pedigree breeders don't produce enough pups to satisfy market demand. I don't know what percent of pups come from BYB's but I'd guess it's 10-20%. Remove that fraction and the market would compensate:

- Pedigree dog prices would rise and low income people would be less able to afford the investment.

- More people would end up with cross-bred oops puppies, or puppy-farm bred DD's.

- Many BYB's would convert to being registered breeders . . . and continue on their way, but producing pups with pedigrees.

The BYB vs. registered breeder dichotomy is an oversimplification. There are some people who the show world would call back-yarders who pay proper attention to health. Say I wanted to breed a non-brachy line of pugs or old-style GSD's, and I found my best prospective breeding stock among non-registered dogs. The quest for improved health would force me to join the ranks of those who get called BYB's. On the other hand, the pedigree dog world is not without disreputable breeders. The Balfours (http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/239070-breeders-sentenced-in-cruelty-case/) were pedigree breeders, and he was a show judge! Many of the large puppy farms in the USA (I use the word to mean places that raise dogs in cages and keep hundreds of dogs, producing puppies on a highly commercial basis) produce pedigree pups, with the blessing of the AKC.

With GSDs there are plenty of registered breeders breeding old style dogs - just look at the working line dogs if you like that structure rather than show lines - no need to go to non registered dogs :)

[milly2]

Unfortunately it looks as though nothing will ever be done about puppy mills or byb, we just have to hope that the people that don't know any better, that buy these dogs, will love and care for them.

I think councils have a lot to answer for I think they should do regular inspections of properties to see how animals are being treated and if there is byb going on,and desexing should be made law for pet owners.

[Janba]

Quality pedigree breeders don't produce enough pups to satisfy market demand. I don't know what percent of pups come from BYB's but I'd guess it's 10-20%. Remove that fraction and the market would compensate:

You should reverse those figures. From the ANKCs website they estimate that ANKC breeders only breed 20% of the pups born in Aus. Working dog breeders, non ANKC breeds like mini foxies etc would only make up a small percentage of the remaining 80% of pups.

[Aphra]

This is a really sensible and thoughtful response! The dog fancy, as in the pedigreed dog world, is only about 100 years old. You could probably argue that it is a cultural product of the Victorian drive to classify the world, and is more a reflection of an historical concern in a particular context than anything else.

Certainly breeders have always cared about bloodlines, but in the context of breeding dogs they knew could perform the job they were wanted for ... that didn't necessarily mean people who bred within a system.

There are backyard breeders who are cross-breeding dogs, for whatever purpose, but are producing healthy, well-cared for dogs. There are backyard breeders who are breeding anything to anything to make money. There are commercial puppy breeders who are breeding for no other reason than to produce incredibly cute puppies and a profit. There are farmers and hunters breeding cross-breed dogs, but doing it carefully, to produce dogs that will work for them.

There are lots of shades of grey (and how I hate those books for hijacking a useful phrase!) when thinking about BYBs. I understand why registered breeders disapprove of cross-breeding, but the reality is that the backyard breeder tradition is a whole lot older and more common than pedigreed breeders. Although I'm very pro-rescue, I'm not anti-pedigree breeder, I've owned pedigreed dogs and cats myself, but I've also owned mixed breed mutts and loved them too.

In many ways, the small scale backyard breeder producing a few litters of puppies and finding homes for them, is much less problematic for me than the large-scale commercial breeders breeding dozens of litters and shipping them all over the country and internationally. Cross-breeding of dogs isn't going to stop, but I'd really like to be able to halt the flow of puppies from commercial breeders (and no, I don't believe Oscar's Law is the solution).

Ideally if people stopped buying BYB puppies, people would no longer breed them :)

Quality pedigree breeders don't produce enough pups to satisfy market demand. I don't know what percent of pups come from BYB's but I'd guess it's 10-20%. Remove that fraction and the market would compensate:

- Pedigree dog prices would rise and low income people would be less able to afford the investment.

- More people would end up with cross-bred oops puppies, or puppy-farm bred DD's.

- Many BYB's would convert to being registered breeders . . . and continue on their way, but producing pups with pedigrees.

The BYB vs. registered breeder dichotomy is an oversimplification. There are some people who the show world would call back-yarders who pay proper attention to health. Say I wanted to breed a non-brachy line of pugs or old-style GSD's, and I found my best prospective breeding stock among non-registered dogs. The quest for improved health would force me to join the ranks of those who get called BYB's. On the other hand, the pedigree dog world is not without disreputable breeders. The Balfours (http://www.dolforums...n-cruelty-case/) were pedigree breeders, and he was a show judge! Many of the large puppy farms in the USA (I use the word to mean places that raise dogs in cages and keep hundreds of dogs, producing puppies on a highly commercial basis) produce pedigree pups, with the blessing of the AKC.

[mita]

I don't believe in accidental litters.

they do happen .. silent heats ... one second's loss of concentration .. nobody's perfect.

Fair call, but I was more referring to the BYB style of "accidental litters"

UQ research found that registered breeders had far less numbers of accidental litters than did unregistered breeders. That's a statistical pattern. When it comes down to an individual breeder of either kind, he/she may or may not fit that pattern. But it's likelier that they will.

For the puppies welfare, it's also about how the puppies are socialised in the critical weeks for that development....with their breeder. UQ research also found that the registered breeders were more likely to socialise their puppies well than the unregistered ones. Without that socialisation being hardwired in...there's higher risk of later problems.

[minimax]

UQ research found that registered breeders had far less numbers of accidental litters than did unregistered breeders. That's a statistical pattern. When it comes down to an individual breeder of either kind, he/she may or may not fit that pattern. But it's likelier that they will.

For the puppies welfare, it's also about how the puppies are socialised in the critical weeks for that development....with their breeder. UQ research also found that the registered breeders were more likely to socialise their puppies well than the unregistered ones. Without that socialisation being hardwired in...there's higher risk of later problems.

Crikey, people actually spent time and money to come to these (startling obvious) conclusions??

[Greytmate]

UQ research found that registered breeders had far less numbers of accidental litters than did unregistered breeders. That's a statistical pattern. When it comes down to an individual breeder of either kind, he/she may or may not fit that pattern. But it's likelier that they will.

For the puppies welfare, it's also about how the puppies are socialised in the critical weeks for that development....with their breeder. UQ research also found that the registered breeders were more likely to socialise their puppies well than the unregistered ones. Without that socialisation being hardwired in...there's higher risk of later problems.

Crikey, people actually spent time and money to come to these (startling obvious) conclusions??

The best way to prove something is with a rigorous academic study. The reason they would do a study is because something seems obvious and they need hard evidence to counter any arguments from people who would disagree.

It is obvious to us dog people how important good puppy rearing is. We can define the factors that make up good puppy raising. If ever a puppy farmer tries to argue that it isn't important, or has a different version of what good puppy raising is, we can prove them wrong. We can also use the research to push for better dog legislation, because it is difficult for legislators to ignore hard evidence when it is presented in the right way.

[mita]

UQ research found that registered breeders had far less numbers of accidental litters than did unregistered breeders. That's a statistical pattern. When it comes down to an individual breeder of either kind, he/she may or may not fit that pattern. But it's likelier that they will.

For the puppies welfare, it's also about how the puppies are socialised in the critical weeks for that development....with their breeder. UQ research also found that the registered breeders were more likely to socialise their puppies well than the unregistered ones. Without that socialisation being hardwired in...there's higher risk of later problems.

Crikey, people actually spent time and money to come to these (startling obvious) conclusions??

You say those conclusions were obvious to you. Does that mean you thought that from what you'd personally seen and heard...and heard other people say? That's called anecdotal evidence....what people believe (intuitively).

Research tests such hypotheses using the scientific method. Sometimes the results bear out the anecdotal evidence, but quite often it doesn't (results are then said to be counter-intuitive.) The maths- based scientific method is also able to detect how strong a pattern is.

UQ is one of the leading research universities in this country and is world-class. As a result of this research, there's scientific evidence backing an opinion that certain behaviours are statistically more likely found among registered breeders, but that doesn't predict for individuals.

Reliance on what appears 'obvious' to people would take us back before the Enlightenment. It was once 'obvious' to most people that the world was flat and that women were less intelligent.... among many other things.

..

[Rebanne]

This is a really sensible and thoughtful response! The dog fancy, as in the pedigreed dog world, is only about 100 years old. You could probably argue that it is a cultural product of the Victorian drive to classify the world, and is more a reflection of an historical concern in a particular context than anything else.

I think you will find it is a lot older then that in quite a few breeds.

[Rascalmyshadow]

This is a discussion I would normally stay out of but I do not agree that better dogs come from registered breeders, nor do they come with less health problems.

We have had quite a few purebreds over the years, mostly poodles but also a couple of other breeds. Through that time the cost of vet bills was through the roof, so much so that I would be lucky to have my vet account to zero for more than a couple of months.

We have lost 3 different breed pedigree dogs (all from well known breeders) before the age of 2. 1 to severe hip dysplasia, 1 to meningitis and 1 to renal failure.

Last year my beautiful pedigree standard poodle was PTS at age 7 because of severe fear aggression that we with styled with for most of her life, that is something I will never get over.

Due to having so many bad experiences we now have our old purebred poodle and the other three are all byb crosses. They all have beautiful temperaments and my vet bills have dropped dramatically.

I have also done a lot of poodle rescue over they years and the worst one was a registered breeder that is still breeding, anyone in the poodle world will know who she is. I took on four of her dogs all in appalling condition, her propery is a standard block in suburbia and she had approximately 50 poodles maybe more.

I might sound like I'm against all registered breeders but I'm not, I just think there is many that are no better than puppy farms and there are byb's like that also, but there are some great ethical registered and byb's breeders.

I think we need to be concentrating more on puppy farms and pet stores and not the pet owners that have a litter and do mostly the right thing, there will always be a market for x breeds they all deserve wonderful homes.

[Steve]

What should happen to puppies born via a BY Breeder? They should be able to find homes with families and for them and the family to live happily ever after.