Evaluating A Sports Prospect Puppy

[megan_]

I think Kabila point is that a working kelpie breeder might not know exactly what she is after, so she wants to be able to express the criteria in terms they'll understand. Also, at the end of the day this dog will be a per living with two young children, so sporting ability is just one of the criteria that needs to be fulfilled.

[huski]

Huski its not just working dogs that have a variation within the litter. We are only referring to them at present as that is what Kavik is after - a working bred dog for agility

I didn't say it was just working dogs? I said that even working dogs can have variation in the litter. You could pick any puppy out of a working litter and it could be suitable for work but some can be more suitable for you as an owner and for the purpose you are working them for than others.

The research should be done before she goes to the property to pick it up. The only kind of test in my mind that may be done at the time of picking the individual puppy is just a basic attitude test. Although its not even a test. You look and handle them, if you like what you see, take one.

Do I worry about prey drive at 7 weeks - NOPE, it will be developed by a good trainer/handler

Do I worry about food drive- NOPE see above

I DO worry about a pup that has no interest in coming to the people or would rather run off and actively look for other activities. That one would stay there.

Nerve can be enhanced or ruined by owners so as long as I see a litter of healthy, happy pups that come and greet people, I am happy. If I see a litter and they scatter like cats when a shadow approaches, I would seriously reconsider. The only kind of things I may do it "accidently" bump something loud around them and check their response and recovery times without making a deal or something like that. I may have a biscuit or something and hold it so it is really hard for pup to get out. I like to see persistance but rather than keep trying too much, I would rather see one dog and scratch at hand then resign and sit an look at me asking to fix it. But this doesn't need to be done before buying as it can be so well moulded from day 1.

So much of a dog is a DIRECT representation of its upbringing so picking at 7 weeks really shouldn't cause too much issues.

If I have decided I am going to get a pup, I research the parents and their temperaments. If they appear compatible, I say I will get one. My criteria then becomes, female, dark head, so no dog with a all white face, outgoing friendly. I believe when selecting a dog and bitch to breed, it should be like to like therefore you can have more confidence in what you will produce. There would only be mild variation within the litter. Its when breeders try to pick a dog with a major flaw and try to correct that flaw by using a bitch that is opposite and hope to get something in the middle. This only creates a litter that can vary from one end of the scale to the other in that trait, and thats without even considering the other traits of the parents.

I picked my last dog out of the back of the ute. The breeder drove halfway and there was 2 boys, 2 girls. I wanted girl and she had to look more border collie than not. 1 female was white, 1 blk and white. I picked the black and white. I couldn't have been happier. I could have spent an hour procrastinating, wasting the breeders time, and realistically if there is nothing DRAMATICALLY wrong with any of them, go ahead.

Everyone is different, I do my research but I still like to assess the pups in the litter. I will be living with the dog for 12-14 years. You may consider it a waste of time but I would still assess a litter of super working line pups how I would assess any other litter of pups I was looking at.

[**Super_Dogs**]

Yes researching the parents is extremely important. IMO it is also important to get to know the variations within the litter by talking to the breeder and/or spending some time with the pups.

I have had litters where temperatment wise the whole litter was very similar and other litter with vast difference.

It can be difficult to determine these difference when you visit the puppies. I have had people visit and say "that puppy is quiet" when in fact that puppy is anything but quiet. They just happen to be visiting when that puppy is tired. The breeder is the greater assistance to get to know the variations within the litter. They spend ALOT of time with the babies!!

I know of working dogs from agility parents that are not suited to agility. So the parents should not be your only criteria.

Edited August 22, 2012 by buddy1

[Vickie]

I still think looking at other dogs from the lines, doing what you want to do with the dog, is your best indication of suitability and a better test than assessing 8 week old pups.The fact is that people who breed working kelpies look at a dogs temperament differently to what we do for sports. They are only interested in temperament in regards to its effect on work.

Some breed and need hard dogs because of the work they do & the way they are treated/trained. Some of these hard dogs would be a challenge/disaster for an average agility home. The ideal temperament for us, is often too soft for a farmer. I see lots of working dogs in agility who are considered too soft by their handlers. Often they are not soft at all, they are backing off, not because they are worried, but because they are sticking their middle finger up. The more they are coaxed & bribed, the less interested they become.

Owner: are the parents biddable?

Breeder says: yes, both do exactly what I want.

Breeder doesn't say: took me 8 months worth of beltings to stop sire biting stock inappropriately. Dam wouldnt come when I call her as a pup, belting didn't work, so she was chained to another dog for 6 months, now she comes every time.

Owner: are the good with kids?

Breeder says: yes I've never had any issue there.

Breeder doesn't say: dogs are chained out the back, my kids have never touched them

Owner: do they have fears and do they bounce back?

Breeder: no fear, bitch was taken out by a ram last week, badly hurt, but still came back and hit hard.

Breeder doesn't say: this bitch has no self preservation & no amount of correction will put her off.

Owner: are they food driven?

Breeder: yes, they love food.

Breeder doesn't say: they run 10k a day, eat every second day & it's mostly scraps.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Vickie

[**Super_Dogs**]

I still think looking at other dogs from the lines, doing what you want to do with the dog, is your best indication of suitability and a better test than assessing 8 week old pups.The fact is that people who breed working kelpies look at a dogs temperament differently to what we do for sports. They are only interested in temperament in regards to its effect on work.

Totally Agree. In saying that know, you still want the right pup from the litter. Think about the people in agility whose dog wont go on a conact because they have come off at one time. However, this is common sense for example you are not going to pick the fearful pup. I like the simple test where you drop the dog bowel. All the pups will scatter.....but then some will come back to check out what it saw

Even better if you find a young dog you like and the breeder had a planned repeat mating.

[canine fun sports]

I guess it is about time I weighed into this discussion.

One thing that would be utmost in my consideration is the handling that the breeder does with the pups.

I do not want ot purchase a pup that is kept down in the back yard and visited twice a day by the "breeder" to give them a bit of extra food.

I want to know that the pups have been handled very regualarly by humans, they have been taken out places, even if only to explore on their own residence. Has the breeder encouraged many people including kids and grandparents to come in and handle the pups? Has time has been spent to take the pups on their own away from their litter mates, even if only for a couple of minutes two or three times a week? Has the breeder ensured the pups have experienced thunder and fireworks noises before 7 weeks of age, whether it be naturally occurring or by playing a CD of these noises? Have they had a wheeley bin roll past, have they heard a lawn mower? Have they been taken for a car ride, other than the traumatic experience of being taken to the vet to have their needles? Have the pups have been wormed regularly and have they been on a good diet? Have the pups been taken for walks and rewarded when they come back to the humans. An independent pup is often the result of not having that much human contact when in the litter. For an agility dog I would like to know they have been on a bed that wobbles, or through a barrel or cardboard box etc etc etc. Not all breeders would do those last couple of things for all their pups, but they should be willing to do these simple things if you make a request.

Environment, during the first 8 weeks of life has a huge effect on temperamemnt, no matter wht the genetics.

To produce outgoing puppies with a good, outgoing, stable temperament for agility (and for life in a pet home) requires the breeder to spend the time with the puppies. Sure, make sure you like the temperament of the parents, but pay a lot of attention to the enviroment in which the pups are kept.

Cheers,

[Kavik]

This is proving a very interesting discussion :)

I didn't meet Kaos before I got him, the breeder chose him and I picked him up at the airport, this time I want to view all the pups etc.

Kaos has certainly given me the 'furry finger' in agility before :laugh: and of course running out of the ring has been an ongoing issue (he has only done it once this year!)

Surely though if you spend time talking to the breeder about your requirements, they will know the difference between a dog that is naturally more biddable and wants to work with you vs a more independent dog?

So far both of my Kelpies/crosses of Kelpies have had great food drive, so either I have been quite lucky or they generally do?

[Kavik]

I guess it is about time I weighed into this discussion.

One thing that would be utmost in my consideration is the handling that the breeder does with the pups.

I do not want ot purchase a pup that is kept down in the back yard and visited twice a day by the "breeder" to give them a bit of extra food.

I want to know that the pups have been handled very regualarly by humans, they have been taken out places, even if only to explore on their own residence. Has the breeder encouraged many people including kids and grandparents to come in and handle the pups? Has time has been spent to take the pups on their own away from their litter mates, even if only for a couple of minutes two or three times a week? Has the breeder ensured the pups have experienced thunder and fireworks noises before 7 weeks of age, whether it be naturally occurring or by playing a CD of these noises? Have they had a wheeley bin roll past, have they heard a lawn mower? Have they been taken for a car ride, other than the traumatic experience of being taken to the vet to have their needles? Have the pups have been wormed regularly and have they been on a good diet? Have the pups been taken for walks and rewarded when they come back to the humans. An independent pup is often the result of not having that much human contact when in the litter. For an agility dog I would like to know they have been on a bed that wobbles, or through a barrel or cardboard box etc etc etc. Not all breeders would do those last couple of things for all their pups, but they should be willing to do these simple things if you make a request.

Environment, during the first 8 weeks of life has a huge effect on temperamemnt, no matter wht the genetics.

To produce outgoing puppies with a good, outgoing, stable temperament for agility (and for life in a pet home) requires the breeder to spend the time with the puppies. Sure, make sure you like the temperament of the parents, but pay a lot of attention to the enviroment in which the pups are kept.

Cheers,

Handling by the breeders and human contact is important, I'm not sure how much handling working dogs generally get. While it would be great if they were exposed to different surfaces and noises like thunder etc I think that is probably unlikely.

[huski]

I still think looking at other dogs from the lines, doing what you want to do with the dog, is your best indication of suitability and a better test than assessing 8 week old pups.The fact is that people who breed working kelpies look at a dogs temperament differently to what we do for sports. They are only interested in temperament in regards to its effect on work.

Some breed and need hard dogs because of the work they do & the way they are treated/trained. Some of these hard dogs would be a challenge/disaster for an average agility home. The ideal temperament for us, is often too soft for a farmer. I see lots of working dogs in agility who are considered too soft by their handlers. Often they are not soft at all, they are backing off, not because they are worried, but because they are sticking their middle finger up. The more they are coaxed & bribed, the less interested they become.

Owner: are the parents biddable?

Breeder says: yes, both do exactly what I want.

Breeder doesn't say: took me 8 months worth of beltings to stop sire biting stock inappropriately. Dam wouldnt come when I call her as a pup, belting didn't work, so she was chained to another dog for 6 months, now she comes every time.

Owner: are the good with kids?

Breeder says: yes I've never had any issue there.

Breeder doesn't say: dogs are chained out the back, my kids have never touched them

Owner: do they have fears and do they bounce back?

Breeder: no fear, bitch was taken out by a ram last week, badly hurt, but still came back and hit hard.

Breeder doesn't say: this bitch has no self preservation & no amount of correction will put her off.

Owner: are they food driven?

Breeder: yes, they love food.

Breeder doesn't say: they run 10k a day, eat every second day & it's mostly scraps.

I totally agree with you VP, but that's also why I would still temp test a litter before selecting a puppy even after doing my research and knowing the lines produce dogs I like etc.

[Cosmolo]

Temperaments aren't formed at 8 weeks so i don't like to refer to it as temp assessing a puppy. Choose the lines, choose the breeder (who will do the degree of socialisation that you want and assist in your selection) and then all i'd do when i get to see the litter is look at degrees of boldness and timidity and pack drive present at that point in time. Everything else provided i got the first two things right can be moulded.

[sheena]

I guess it is about time I weighed into this discussion.

One thing that would be utmost in my consideration is the handling that the breeder does with the pups.

I do not want ot purchase a pup that is kept down in the back yard and visited twice a day by the "breeder" to give them a bit of extra food.

I want to know that the pups have been handled very regualarly by humans, they have been taken out places, even if only to explore on their own residence. Has the breeder encouraged many people including kids and grandparents to come in and handle the pups? Has time has been spent to take the pups on their own away from their litter mates, even if only for a couple of minutes two or three times a week? Has the breeder ensured the pups have experienced thunder and fireworks noises before 7 weeks of age, whether it be naturally occurring or by playing a CD of these noises? Have they had a wheeley bin roll past, have they heard a lawn mower? Have they been taken for a car ride, other than the traumatic experience of being taken to the vet to have their needles? Have the pups have been wormed regularly and have they been on a good diet? Have the pups been taken for walks and rewarded when they come back to the humans. An independent pup is often the result of not having that much human contact when in the litter. For an agility dog I would like to know they have been on a bed that wobbles, or through a barrel or cardboard box etc etc etc. Not all breeders would do those last couple of things for all their pups, but they should be willing to do these simple things if you make a request.

Environment, during the first 8 weeks of life has a huge effect on temperamemnt, no matter wht the genetics.

To produce outgoing puppies with a good, outgoing, stable temperament for agility (and for life in a pet home) requires the breeder to spend the time with the puppies. Sure, make sure you like the temperament of the parents, but pay a lot of attention to the enviroment in which the pups are kept.

Cheers,

The breeder of my young guy did all of the above, & boy, am I grateful. He is so cool & calm but has lots of drive & just loves his agility. I guess you could say he has an off/on switch.

There is a good chapter in "The Focused Puppy" on temp. testing pups for their suitability for agility.

Edited August 23, 2012 by sheena

[Lablover]

What do others do when evaluating a puppy or a litter for sports potential? What traits do you look for in a pup and would you do any sort of puppy evaluation test to pick the most suitable pup in a litter?

What a completely wonderful thread. A subject dear to my heart....evaluating pedigrees, looking at individual dogs, and litter testing.

I agree with so many other posters. I have dealt with some Australian breeding organisatons - both Federal and State, and have discussed this very subject. Mind you, given myself my might fine headaches - pondering!

I had one organisation, as it so happens, just a couple of months ago, fly in and test a litter of eight available pups.

The pups were individually tested (about half a hour), in a new/unknown area, tested by unknown trainers. The tests were basically similar to this link:

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/BuyersGuide/Puppy_Aptitude_Test.htm

[**Super_Dogs**]

I had one organisation, as it so happens, just a couple of months ago, fly in and test a litter of eight available pups.

I want this job!!

[Lablover]

O BTW, the kept the worst scored pup. She is a retrieving fool, high drive and great nerve.

If tests, which are basically I suppose a snapshot opportunity, were 100% no organisation would have failures.

[Lablover]

I had one organisation, as it so happens, just a couple of months ago, fly in and test a litter of eight available pups.

I want this job!!

Big responsibility - selecting pups for Australian Government. Not sure I would like the job. Breeding is so less stressful NOT!! ha ha.

[JulesP]

I did all this research when I went to pick Poppy. It kind of all went out of the window though as she picked me! Every time I reached down for the next puppy, there she was. She reached me first out of the bunch of pups and didn't leave me for the whole time I was there. That has translated into a bit of separation anxiety but she is super loyal and super obedient and wants to work with me the whole time.

[Inevitablue]

I did all this research when I went to pick Poppy. It kind of all went out of the window though as she picked me! Every time I reached down for the next puppy, there she was. She reached me first out of the bunch of pups and didn't leave me for the whole time I was there. That has translated into a bit of separation anxiety but she is super loyal and super obedient and wants to work with me the whole time.

Same, I was offered pick of 3 litters, ruled out the ones I didn't like structurally then spent plenty of time with the pups between 5 and 7 weeks. One male just kept choosing me over his litter mates. They would go one way and he would follow me. Even with other people around he would seek me out. All of the pups reacted well to a slight scare, and worked out how to get over/under/through obstacles but in the end how could I not take the pup who seemed to choose me. Luckily he was also the most prey driven pup. There was a better show prospect in his litter but he just won me over.

[Tassie]

I did all this research when I went to pick Poppy. It kind of all went out of the window though as she picked me! Every time I reached down for the next puppy, there she was. She reached me first out of the bunch of pups and didn't leave me for the whole time I was there. That has translated into a bit of separation anxiety but she is super loyal and super obedient and wants to work with me the whole time.

love this Jules. Sometimes you just have to go with trusting the Universe ... or in this case, the puppy !! :laugh:

[lovemesideways]

I found a super breeder that I just loved, I went and met her and the dogs on a few occasions. Took 5 years till I was in a position to actually get a WL GSD, went back to the breeder who put me at the top of her list :D

Loved the bitch, loved the sire. Researched the lines both dogs came from and found a lot that I liked.

Then went to see the litter, Roscoe was the one who wouldn't leave me alone, he nommed my pants, latched on and wouldn't let go, then rolled onto his back for a wriggly belly rub <3