Evaluating A Sports Prospect Puppy

[Kavik]

What do others do when evaluating a puppy or a litter for sports potential? What traits do you look for in a pup and would you do any sort of puppy evaluation test to pick the most suitable pup in a litter?

[Kia]

What do others do when evaluating a puppy or a litter for sports potential? What traits do you look for in a pup and would you do any sort of puppy evaluation test to pick the most suitable pup in a litter?

The first thing you would be looking for is a well constructed dog.....any weakness will usually show up when competing and those injuries can take a long time to heal.

Heart is something that isn't really explainable....but you will know after studying the pups for a while.

[dasha]

Well you need to pick a breed that is suitable to work as a team. One that is biddable, got suitable drive for play and pack, and has a sound temperament.

Then within the breed you pick, you need to make sure you get the lines that will suit what you want. Don't pick a line of hard headed independant dogs if you want a nice biddable team worker.

I think if you have picked the lines correctly, and a good breeder, you should be able to pick ANY pup from the litter and be happy with your purchase. Put your hand in the pen, pick it up and buy it. Unless of course then colour or marking preferences, sex preference etc comes into it.

[Kavik]

Thanks guys :)

dasha

Have picked breed (Kelpie :D ), still narrowing down breeders and lines but have an idea now what I think I am looking for there and a couple in mind. I am also looking for a breeder I can discuss my requirements with, who can help suggest which of their litters and pups within the litter would be most suitable. I plan on having someone else come with me to help provide another viewpoint.

[Salukifan]

Structure

People focus (if a handler sport)

Resilience. That's super important.

I like the Volhard puppy test as a bit of a guage and then Pat Hastings system for structural evaluation.

After that its just gut.

[**Super_Dogs**]

I look for at:

• Responsiveness
  
• How keen they are to work for me
  
• How quickly they learn
  

With my last litter from 6 weeks iI played chasing games and taught the pups to sit. Some pups were just not interested and 2 pups had all of the above. I then made my final choice of these 2 by gut.

[Jumabaar]

I also used Pat Hastings test for structure. I pet homed a pup that was not great structurally but had the perfect temperament for dog sports. There was no point sending a pup with all that drive to someone only to have the dog be injured due to structural faults. I sent those prospective buyers to a different breeder because I kept the only two 'complete packages'- and to sell them anything less would have not been in anyones best interest.

Much better to wait for the temperament in the right body!!

I am not sure how I pick the temperament. As a breeder it was easy for my by 8weeks to pick the differences- I think its hard to walk in and pick them though and I will in the future go to breeders who do the sports I am interested in and be guided by them on the pup with the right temperament.

My first girl was 'sheer dumb luck' being the sleepiest laziest pup in the litter who was given to me in the hopes I could keep the dog from getting fat :laugh: She has been my highest drive nutter who still pulls the wool over my eyes and was the perfect dog (thats totally not biased of course)

Edited August 20, 2012 by Jumabaar

[Jigsaw]

Structure is especially important for a dog that will ultimately compete in any dog sport.

I like to look for a keenness to tug, but to play with you, rather than winning the tug and running off with it.

Food drive, will the puppy take your fingers off for food or is it a gentle nibbler or just not interested.

How much time does the pup want to spend with you and how does it respond to attention, petting. Is it a cuddler or running off to explore or be with its littermates?

Lastly, how resilient is the pup if it doesn't get it's way - will it have a full on tanty or will it have a little protest and then come in for praise and treat.

If the breeder has experience of putting dogs in sports homes they should know what to look for and advise you. You also need to consider the other dogs in your home and the lifestyle you lead as ultimately you have to live with the dog.

Sometimes though, you just see a pup and know that that one is the one for you!!! :)

[toshman]

I also used Pat Hastings test for structure. I pet homed a pup that was not great structurally but had the perfect temperament for dog sports. There was no point sending a pup with all that drive to someone only to have the dog be injured due to structural faults. I sent those prospective buyers to a different breeder because I kept the only two 'complete packages'- and to sell them anything less would have not been in anyones best interest.

Much better to wait for the temperament in the right body!!

I am not sure how I pick the temperament. As a breeder it was easy for my by 8weeks to pick the differences- I think its hard to walk in and pick them though and I will in the future go to breeders who do the sports I am interested in and be guided by them on the pup with the right temperament.

My first girl was 'sheer dumb luck' being the sleepiest laziest pup in the litter who was given to me in the hopes I could keep the dog from getting fat :laugh: She has been my highest drive nutter who still pulls the wool over my eyes and was the perfect dog (thats totally not biased of course)

I wish Pat Hastings thought the same I went to her most recent workshop here in Sydney and was very surprised to hear her say, when asked, that she would never tell a prospective 'pet owner' (and she included sports prospects) of any of the structural faults in a dog that she was rejecting for the show ring...

[Jumabaar]

I also used Pat Hastings test for structure. I pet homed a pup that was not great structurally but had the perfect temperament for dog sports. There was no point sending a pup with all that drive to someone only to have the dog be injured due to structural faults. I sent those prospective buyers to a different breeder because I kept the only two 'complete packages'- and to sell them anything less would have not been in anyones best interest.

Much better to wait for the temperament in the right body!!

I am not sure how I pick the temperament. As a breeder it was easy for my by 8weeks to pick the differences- I think its hard to walk in and pick them though and I will in the future go to breeders who do the sports I am interested in and be guided by them on the pup with the right temperament.

My first girl was 'sheer dumb luck' being the sleepiest laziest pup in the litter who was given to me in the hopes I could keep the dog from getting fat :laugh: She has been my highest drive nutter who still pulls the wool over my eyes and was the perfect dog (thats totally not biased of course)

I wish Pat Hastings thought the same I went to her most recent workshop here in Sydney and was very surprised to hear her say, when asked, that she would never tell a prospective 'pet owner' (and she included sports prospects) of any of the structural faults in a dog that she was rejecting for the show ring...

She wouldnt sell pups with structural faults to sporting homes so thats a null point.

I personally wouldnt tell prospective pet homes the problems their pup has either- its a demographic of people who are on average not interested in anything other than temperament and health. I would disclose if I thought there would be problems later in life and I would disclose if I was asked but there is no way I would taint the relationship of a puppy owner !! Particularly when the 'fault' might be trivial and will never impact on the dogs life.

ie sorry I rejected your pup because it had 5 degrees less angulation through the stifle than what I find desirable.

In all honesty they dont care about the angulation AND you have just told them the pup was a reject.

As opposed to an adorable pup that was selected because it was the perfect match for them.

[sheena]

If ever I cross over to the dark side & get a kelpie, I will be going straight to Mandy at Callicoma Kelpies at Grafton. Her dogs are so versatile....they do well in the showring, agility, herding, tracking, obedience & even dancing. Some of her pups have even ended up in Europe & are doing well in their careers. But you would need to go on a waiting list. She is also very reasonably priced.

[piper]

I also used Pat Hastings test for structure. I pet homed a pup that was not great structurally but had the perfect temperament for dog sports. There was no point sending a pup with all that drive to someone only to have the dog be injured due to structural faults. I sent those prospective buyers to a different breeder because I kept the only two 'complete packages'- and to sell them anything less would have not been in anyones best interest.

Much better to wait for the temperament in the right body!!

I am not sure how I pick the temperament. As a breeder it was easy for my by 8weeks to pick the differences- I think its hard to walk in and pick them though and I will in the future go to breeders who do the sports I am interested in and be guided by them on the pup with the right temperament.

My first girl was 'sheer dumb luck' being the sleepiest laziest pup in the litter who was given to me in the hopes I could keep the dog from getting fat :laugh: She has been my highest drive nutter who still pulls the wool over my eyes and was the perfect dog (thats totally not biased of course)

I wish Pat Hastings thought the same I went to her most recent workshop here in Sydney and was very surprised to hear her say, when asked, that she would never tell a prospective 'pet owner' (and she included sports prospects) of any of the structural faults in a dog that she was rejecting for the show ring...

She wouldnt sell pups with structural faults to sporting homes so thats a null point.

I personally wouldnt tell prospective pet homes the problems their pup has either- its a demographic of people who are on average not interested in anything other than temperament and health. I would disclose if I thought there would be problems later in life and I would disclose if I was asked but there is no way I would taint the relationship of a puppy owner !! Particularly when the 'fault' might be trivial and will never impact on the dogs life.

ie sorry I rejected your pup because it had 5 degrees less angulation through the stifle than what I find desirable.

In all honesty they dont care about the angulation AND you have just told them the pup was a reject.

As opposed to an adorable pup that was selected because it was the perfect match for them.

This. It also depends when talking about a sporting pup what the "fault" was - if there is not enough stop or the muzzle is too long/too narrow then it is not going to affect it's ability as a sporting dog. However if we are talking leg to boy length ratio or something like that which would impact on the ability to do the job bred for then no it wouldn't be sold to that type of home. I would however say to someone enquiring about a performance pup if they particularly like a pup based on temperament that I dont feel it is suitable for their purpose due to the the structure.

[Kavik]

If ever I cross over to the dark side & get a kelpie, I will be going straight to Mandy at Callicoma Kelpies at Grafton. Her dogs are so versatile....they do well in the showring, agility, herding, tracking, obedience & even dancing. Some of her pups have even ended up in Europe & are doing well in their careers. But you would need to go on a waiting list. She is also very reasonably priced.

I am looking at working line dogs but thanks for the recommendation :)

[piper]

I know a few lovely Noonbarra working kelpies and I know that they were really good in helping a friend get the right dog. She told them about her other kelpies, issues she had and what she was wanting and they told her which of their planned matings would provide the best options for her and also which 1s would definitely not be suitable and why.

I suggested Noonbarra as an option to her after having someone come to 1 of my puppy classes years ago with a lovely Noonbarra boy. The breeders obviously put a lot of time into them - he brought along the puppy pack he had been given to show me and they had so much good information in there. It was fantastic and the puppy was such a well adjusted young lad.

[Kavik]

I have not had the same good experience with Noonbarra dogs.

I have narrowed it down to a couple of breeders, haven't contacted them yet though to see whether they sell to sports homes.

[Vickie]

I think if you have picked the lines correctly, and a good breeder, you should be able to pick ANY pup from the litter and be happy with your purchase. Put your hand in the pen, pick it up and buy it.

This! Has worked very well for me :)

I look at the worst attributes of each parent (and siblings, grandparents if possible). If I can live with their combined worst traits (since that is a genetic possibility) then I'm happy to go ahead. Of course, I hope to have a combination of their best traits too :)

As far as picking the lines/breeder...think about your favourite kelpies, the ones you most admire in agility. Are they a one off? Or are there other dogs from the same lines that you also admire. To go to an unknown breeder based on what you see on paper and viewing individual dogs, without an indepth knowledge of the breed is a bit of a lottery IMO.

The last 4 dogs I have, I have because the lines I wanted became available, rather than because I was looking for a new dog at that time.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Vickie

[Kavik]

Do you really think that a litter of pups would be so uniform that any puppy from the litter would be just as good as another for sports? I would have thought that there would be variation within the litter, especially considering the range of jobs that Kelpies are often asked to do, and some would suit some jobs better than others.

I'm having a hard time trying to pick based on what Kelpies I see at agility, as they seem to be varied and from all different breeders, and some of my favourites are rescues :laugh: - I approach everyone with a Kelpie that I like to ask where it is from, including at the Nationals!

What I am doing so far is to take what I know of Kelpies and different types within Kelpies, the jobs they do, temperaments and build, and look at those traits and look at the traits I am looking for for sports and looking for the type that would best suit what I am looking for. I am also trying to be able to describe what I am looking for in terms that a working Kelpie breeder would understand so they can also assist me and let me know if that is the type they have and with individual puppies.

[dasha]

Kavik, in my experience with working dog breeders, they sell WORKING dogs.

Most of them would have NO idea of ideal traits for a high level SPORTS dog. You say you want an outgoing dog that wants to play all day etc, they picture the crazy one on the chain that they won't let off much as it drives them mad. But is not necessarily the right energy that you want for a sports dog. That one can't focus, is hard to teach etc

The breed good yard dog male to good yard dog female and then hopefully produce good yard dog puppies. Then its up to the trainer to bring out the best or worst in those dogs.

In my experience, a lot of yard specific dogs are a little independant and headstrong as they need to be tough. THey NEED to put up with the handler yelling and loud noises of stock moving through metal yards banging and clanging. THey need to cope a headbutt or trampling by sheep and not let it put them off.

Then there is the paddock type dog, a lot quieter, sensitive and less busy (hopefully). These traits suit the paddock type work as they are often moving larger mobs, need to keep their distance. They also need to be more sensible and read their stock very well. They are more sensitive to the body language of the sheep and often the handler. They see the sheep get restless, they should back off a little to take pressure off. They need to be soft and quiet to move ewes with little lambs so that they don't mismother when being moved by a busier bully dog that causes chaos. You may find this type of dog a little too soft for working close to a handler under pressure.

Obviously this is a very generalised response but things you need to be aware of.

I have a yard style dog and she was good for agility, very bold, fast, brave....... but bloody hard headed. If there was an obstacle she wanted to do, by golly you had to yell at her to call her off. She is tough.

I also have a paddock type dog. Easier to train as she is not a busy energy, took on board the lesson, but was reluctant to work close and very sensitive to my body language, voice and feelings. So had a lot of potential, but a lot of things also potentially worked against her.

I do think if the genetics parent are what you like, the genetics in the pups will be there so essentially any pup in the litter would be fine. There of course would be minor variations but if the core traits are what you want, then it is purely the upbringing and training of the owner that gets the end result.

[Vickie]

Do you really think that a litter of pups would be so uniform that any puppy from the litter would be just as good as another for sports?

well obviously that depends on what the breeder is doing, whether they are outcrossing or not & how good they are at it, but yes, that has been my experience with the last 3 litters I have taken a dog from. And I know all the pups from each one in Australia & am in contact with the owners of ones living overseas. My dogs have been bred without extremes though & bred to complement working traits rather than introduce new ones.

I would have thought that there would be variation within the litter, especially considering the range of jobs that Kelpies are often asked to do, and some would suit some jobs better than others.

yes, maybe if they are trying to produce an allrounder by breeding a yard dog with a paddock dog. Or if they have a dog that is too independent & wanting to breed it to something extremely biddable. But see I would never take a pup from someone trying to do this, because I dont want one who is too independent, so would rule them out as there is potential for genetics I don't want. I am also not confident that those genetics are identifiable with certainty in an 8 week old pup. Too risky for me.

The other thing you have to consider is the nature vs nuture thing. Even if there are variations within a litter, are they significant enough that they will exist despite the way each individual is raised & trained?

I'm having a hard time trying to pick based on what Kelpies I see at agility, as they seem to be varied and from all different breeders, and some of my favourites are rescues :laugh: - I approach everyone with a Kelpie that I like to ask where it is from, including at the Nationals!

Really? Then what is it that makes you want a kelpie for agility?

What I am doing so far is to take what I know of Kelpies and different types within Kelpies, the jobs they do, temperaments and build, and look at those traits and look at the traits I am looking for for sports and looking for the type that would best suit what I am looking for. I am also trying to be able to describe what I am looking for in terms that a working Kelpie breeder would understand so they can also assist me and let me know if that is the type they have and with individual puppies.

I would say that to do the above successfully, you would probably need a level of knowledge & experience of working traits, possibly beyond what you currently have. If you're not in a hurry for a pup, my advice would be to make the effort to do some sheepwork with Kaos. It will give you a much better insight into what traits you want and how to assess them. It will also expose you to more kelpie lines & hopefully some will really stand out.

Edited August 21, 2012 by Vickie

[Kavik]

Thanks guys that is really helpful, I was hoping you might comment :)

My thoughts were that a yard type dog would be more comfortable coming closer and interacting more closely with the handler, and be able to put up with more pressure, and this is what I am veering towards.

I understand that working breeders would not really understand what I am looking for in a sports dog, which is why I am trying to understand more about what they would be looking for in a working dog so I could approach them looking for traits that they already understand and recognise.

Doing sheepwork with Kaos is a good idea to get a better understanding, it will let me know more about what I have in Kaos as well, will have a think about how I could possibly fit that in and where etc - that is a whole other ballpark :laugh: