Tazar Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 (edited) Hi, I know this has recently been discussed but maybe specific info may bring more specific advice. Rescue GSD, not a bad situation but he was in a small yard with minimal human contact and he absolutely destroyed everything in it - due to boredom I assumed. He is a delightful dog, fairly submissive and very obedient. He ha no training until he came to me and he has responded really well. Initially you could not touch his legs or feet but I can now put my fingers between his toes and whilst it is not his favourite thing he is ok with it. He is extremely protective of his turf (when I am not home) but has never shown agression to people or other animals. He is about 2.5 year old. He came from a reputable breeder and as such, was an expensive pup IMHO. He has always chased bugs and butterflys and sometimes his tail. Now I am forced to think about it, he seems to chase his tail when he is around noise, any noise really, I'd even go so far to say when people are around him if he is not being patted, trained or otherwise occupied, he is tail chasing. He has trimmed the fur on the last 6 inches of his tail recently and today I noticed the tip is bleeding. If he is inside on his rug, in a commanded position, in his crate, in the car, he doesn't go near it. I have always gotten his attention to stop him tail chasing but just by distracting him. Obviously I really need to up the anti BIG TIME. Reading through the recent posts about this, I guess I am wondering if anyone has had much success in stopping the behaviour once it has reached the level of drawing blood? Any feed back will be greatly appreciated and thanks for reading... Edited August 21, 2012 by Tazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mixeduppup Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Maybe you could try something foul tasting on the tip of his tail (not on the injured spot of course). Sounds like attention seeking/anxiety that is quickly becoming neurotic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 poor boy ..has the breeder been contacted? he may well have big problems if he left alone and understimulated/educated ... or perhaps he is one who was born 'different' Do have the resources to see a vet behaviourist like Robert Holmes (I'm sure there are others)? They can do physical and psycholgical profiles and help you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazar Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 I don't think it is attention seeking, anxiety yes but there appear to be soooooo many triggers.... I hope it doesn't get worse, I have him inside now and he is not at all interested in it. I will persist with the training as I am not keen to medicate him without exhausting other avenues first. It is just yuk as when he wags his tail bits of blood flick on the walls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussienot Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 Medication can help behavioral modification work better, so don't rule it out. It is not an either/or choice, the two can work together vey well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 For an issue like this i would go straight to Dr Robert Holmes- medication may need to be included as part of a behaviour modification program and i wouldn't leave it any longer- the worse it gets the harder it's likely to be to resolve. I assume he has no fleas or skin conditions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazar Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) No skin problems or fleas, very healthy and super lean (can't put weight on him, actually). Has anyone had any success with behaviour modification with or without meds? I am looking for some success stories I guess... thanks for the feedback too :) Taking it all in :0) Edited August 21, 2012 by Tazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Can you tell us how long you've had him? Was this a problem for his previous owner, or did it begin after you got him? Have you contacted the breeder for advice? If he came from a reputable kennel, they may have be able to help. Does the environment he lives in now offer enough mental and physical excercise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazar Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 I have had him for about 10 months and yes he has always chased his tail but not obessively, when he did it he would just sit on it with his hind leg but not chew it. Chewing has only recently started. I don't know what he did before I got him but he was in a small back yard with no stimulation and minimal contact. He ripped the yard apart including an outdoor setting that he reduced to small sticks. I think it is a learned behaviour that was started well before I got him. I consider him to be a bit highly strung. We are on a couple of hectares and he has company and lots of things to do, they amuse themselves with balls, playing tug with each other and playing chase. He is also highly trainined and gets, at a bare minimum, about 10 minutes a day. So I don't think stimulation is the problem. The other dog I have is definitely more dominant and the play can get a little rough but he gives as good as he gets and always go back for more. He chases butterflys and bugs, leaping in the air to try to catch them. I have been observing him closly since Monday and loud noise seem to be a red hot trigger for circling. For example I vaccumed inside yesterday and he started circling at the window. I have started interupting this behaviour and he seems to be responding as he just stood and watched after three interruptions. I did not continue vaccuming for much longer but I saw it as a win, all be it small. He did come from a reputable breed as I understand so I will be trying to track her down, the only info I have is her name is Michele and she is in North Queensland. Trying to get hold of the original owner to see what further info he has. He is registered but I have not seen his papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lavendergirl Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Sounds serious. I would see a vet behaviourist if possible - there are medications to assist with compulsive behaviour such as this. I think it will likely get worse otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*kirty* Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 GSDs are prone to CCD - Canine Compulsive Disorder. It can be very hard to deal with but some people manage to stop the behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IngeK Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Our female GSD has the same thing. We got her as a rescue when she was 4 years old and half her tail was bold, she actually pulled out all the hairs. The tip was often bleading. We think she had a lack of attention and being in some sort of washhouse for most of the time before we got her. We have always told her "no" but its very hard. She has been on some sort of drops from the naturopath for a while which made her a lot calmer. She still does it sometimes when we get visitors or if something unexptecing happens (doorbell, phone rings etc) but she doesnt just take every spare minute anymore to chase the tale. I wouldnt recommend putting anything on the tail while you then put the attention on it even more. What we have done in the beginning is wel is put a postit note on her front paw when she would start spinning to try and put her attention to that. She is 11.5 now and still neurotic at some times but at least shes got hair on the tail and is a lot calmer. Good luck with your boy, its very sad to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teebs Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Look up 'spinners' in bull terriers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 If OCD wasn't a consideration - and I think that OCD might be a major problem... For which you need professional help and anti anxiety meds (or whatever the prof help recommends). I would put aloe vera directly from cactus leaf onto the tail - because it's great for healing and it tastes horrible - even to a dog. But if the dog is so bad you start running out of cactus - too much aloe vera is toxic. Ie once a day on a small wound is ok but five times a day on a giant wound - maybe not. Or if the dog eats the cactus - bad (but unlikely). And - this is going to seem bizare - I would teach the dog to spin on command. Once learned I would only reward when the spin is cue'ed. Teach both directions. I use "Left" for counter clockwise and "right" for clockwise. DWD people use "twirl" and "spin". For some dogs (and I use this for both spinning and barking) if it's on cue and earns a reward when cue'd, they're less likely to give it away for free. But my dog is not completely obsessive about it. And if you're trying to get rid of one obsessive self comforting habit - it may pay to substitute a more acceptable self comforting habit ie sucking thumb might be preferable to biting nails. So think about what you want the dog to do instead. Eg licking a toy might be good. And this isn't going to help if it's happening when you're out. If it is anxiety related a thunder shirt might help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarmons Posted August 24, 2012 Share Posted August 24, 2012 I have had him for about 10 months and yes he has always chased his tail but not obessively, when he did it he would just sit on it with his hind leg but not chew it. Chewing has only recently started. I don't know what he did before I got him but he was in a small back yard with no stimulation and minimal contact. He ripped the yard apart including an outdoor setting that he reduced to small sticks. I think it is a learned behaviour that was started well before I got him. I consider him to be a bit highly strung. We are on a couple of hectares and he has company and lots of things to do, they amuse themselves with balls, playing tug with each other and playing chase. He is also highly trainined and gets, at a bare minimum, about 10 minutes a day. So I don't think stimulation is the problem. The other dog I have is definitely more dominant and the play can get a little rough but he gives as good as he gets and always go back for more. He chases butterflys and bugs, leaping in the air to try to catch them. I have been observing him closly since Monday and loud noise seem to be a red hot trigger for circling. For example I vaccumed inside yesterday and he started circling at the window. I have started interupting this behaviour and he seems to be responding as he just stood and watched after three interruptions. I did not continue vaccuming for much longer but I saw it as a win, all be it small. He did come from a reputable breed as I understand so I will be trying to track her down, the only info I have is her name is Michele and she is in North Queensland. Trying to get hold of the original owner to see what further info he has. He is registered but I have not seen his papers. Please PM me for breeder's contact details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazar Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) Thank you for the advice, very much appreciated. :) Tracked the breeder down, thanks Tarmons. No further insight though as the lady I spoke to said they have not experienced it in their lines. On the upside, I have been interrupting his behaviour and today when I vacummed, he got up close to the other dog, who was lying at the back door, and sat between his legs with his back to the door, the whole time. He did not look in (I have glass doors). I could tell he was not comfortable but he did not circle, he didn't move in fact and I must have been going for about half an hour. No interruptions necessary. So another success albeit minor but still worth a little Edited August 24, 2012 by Tazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) Some tips : Don't forget to reinforce the preferred/better behaviour. I wouldn't make high fuss, but the calm delivery of a food treat and pat when he's not and hasn't been paying attention to tail can be helpful. Sometimes some things such as the wearing of a harness, for example, can help stop/change undesirable behaviours. Shouldn't be constant wear though as the body can simply adjust and get so used to wearing it that the dog becomes no longer conscious of it being there. But putting it on before the onset of known triggers can help. Thunder coats can assist also. In addition - where possible, take the (worst) known triggers and begin teaching an alternate and preferably incompatible behaviour than tail chasing. I'm not a big fan of teaching spinning. It might work for some but in other instances can worsen an already bad self-harm situation. Rather than saying "no", use something to distract and/or cause the dog to pause the behaviour. Call over/away. Be calm/neutral but rewarding for the dog. This, as for the other things, needs consistency for success though. Edited August 25, 2012 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazar Posted September 7, 2012 Author Share Posted September 7, 2012 Thank you for the advice and stories. My pooch is improving and the wound has healed well. We are doing lots of work together he responds immediately when I let him know I am watching him, and stops the behaviour. Planning on getting him on vitamins to see if that helps further :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Thank you for the advice and stories. My pooch is improving and the wound has healed well. We are doing lots of work together he responds immediately when I let him know I am watching him, and stops the behaviour. Planning on getting him on vitamins to see if that helps further :) Excellent!! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Check out BT Neuro.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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