Holding On To The Dumbell Issues

[Sparty]

I am at my wits end, I love my boys but both to the same thing retrieve get to within a meter of me then spit out whatever they have in their mouth and stare at it waiting for it to move on its own

they both love a tug motivator have no trouble pulling it but getting them to hold anything and stay still is hard.

Any constructive suggestions would be welcome :) Bodie has been held back in obedience as we cant do this one thing and his younger brother seems to be heading the same way I realise its probably me that is the problem but how do i fix me/this thanks :)

[persephone]

maybe silly question...

have you taught them to 'hold' items until you release them from the task?

[Sparty]

I have been trying, have tried a few sessions of clicker training which they love, rewarding them to pick the item back up. have tried getting them to hold a soft item they are both a bit iffy about that which is weird as both of them when we are out playing seem to need to carry stuff around in their mouths, bark, boots, cardboard not that fussy but as soon as they are sitting in front of me trying to give them anything is a struggle

[persephone]

but as soon as they are sitting in front of me trying to give them anything is a struggle

do you use treats?

Could the dogs know you have treats and be anticipating?

[tracksam]

i would go right back to basics, if the dogs understand the clicker, i would start by sitting in a chair, have the dogs either sitting in front or standing close to you ( may need to be on lead to keep control ),have a container of really special treats ready, present the dumbell very close to the dogs mouth,wait the dog out and the second they make the slightest movement towards the dummy click, reward,gradually over many training seesions you can then wait until they touch the dumbell, click ,reward.hopefully dog will then place their mouth over the dummy, click, reward.At this stage you would now only click for the mouth over the dummy not just touching and progress from there. many people make the mistake IMO of throwing the dummy as a play thing for the dog ,the dog has never been taught the hold part which leads to spitting the dummy,

[Tassie]

i would go right back to basics, if the dogs understand the clicker, i would start by sitting in a chair, have the dogs either sitting in front or standing close to you ( may need to be on lead to keep control ),have a container of really special treats ready, present the dumbell very close to the dogs mouth,wait the dog out and the second they make the slightest movement towards the dummy click, reward,gradually over many training seesions you can then wait until they touch the dumbell, click ,reward.hopefully dog will then place their mouth over the dummy, click, reward.At this stage you would now only click for the mouth over the dummy not just touching and progress from there. many people make the mistake IMO of throwing the dummy as a play thing for the dog ,the dog has never been taught the hold part which leads to spitting the dummy,

+1

[Sparty]

thanks Tracksam I have been working on that, they seem determined to outlast me Zee was staring at the toy for 2 minutes before determined it was going to move on its own >.<

I was trying to get them to hold the rubber duck today something soft and squishy as they are sooky boys and i want the hold to be a positive thing for them, will keep trying :)

Tassie was it you that was interested in flyball all those years ago? I saw the Tassie teams at dandenong last year and thought of you :)

[Red Fox]

Teach the dog the hold with something solid - PVC pipe or wooden dowel is good.

If you want the dog to retrieve to your hand then you need to back-chain it.

[piper]

I used this method: http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html

[gsdog2]

You have my sympathy Sparty. I've tried all of the above with Indi i.e. going back to the beginning, use a hose as a dumbbell and wait her out *insert Mr Rolly-eyes*.

We get as far as her giving a quick grab, but then we come to a complete halt. In fact she will lay down beside me and give me this look that says "this session is now over!!!!"

[Red Fox]

You have my sympathy Sparty. I've tried all of the above with Indi i.e. going back to the beginning, use a hose as a dumbbell and wait her out *insert Mr Rolly-eyes*.

We get as far as her giving a quick grab, but then we come to a complete halt. In fact she will lay down beside me and give me this look that says "this session is now over!!!!"

Have you seen the Michael Ellis Retrieve DVD?

[OSoSwift]

I agree iwth the bucket of extra special food, chair dumbell lead etc.

I had a dog who had completely shut down to the dumbell. I crossed over to clicker and decided we could do it. As soon as I got the dumbell in my hand she completely shut down. I waited her out - over many training sessions it took 5 hours, yes 5 hours for her to look at that bloody dumbell.

The good news is once we got past the stumbling block caused by past experiences she became rock solid and it became one of her favourite things to do.

Do not give up and do not go too fast. It may be that your timing is very slightly out. Do you have access to an experienced clicker trainier who could stand behind you, sit near you and click for you?

[piper]

The other thing I just thought of - is that how you hbe played fetch games with them? The spit and stare sounds like they have a expectation for you to pick it up or kick it. So I would be careful not to play that game with any toy while trying to fix the problem.

Jazz used to do similar with her frisbee, I went and sat outside with a book and ignored her until she offered more again and eventually presented it to me. She went through a period of frustration but eventually nudged it at Koch point I threw it again and next time waited for mouth on it not nudge etc. The first few attempts I got plenty of reading done (I took the book so I didnt end up sitting and staring at her or giving any other body cues.) but within a few sessions she started progressing quickly.

[gsdog2]

You have my sympathy Sparty. I've tried all of the above with Indi i.e. going back to the beginning, use a hose as a dumbbell and wait her out *insert Mr Rolly-eyes*.

We get as far as her giving a quick grab, but then we come to a complete halt. In fact she will lay down beside me and give me this look that says "this session is now over!!!!"

Have you seen the Michael Ellis Retrieve DVD?

I have a lot of his dvd's but not that one - thanks for the suggestion :)

[Tassie]

Tassie was it you that was interested in flyball all those years ago? I saw the Tassie teams at dandenong last year and thought of you

Yep, Sparty - that was me. Went away from it though - Fergus (RIP) the boy I had then, couldn't pass other dogs - didn't trust them and would drop the ball - and Kirra was getting confused because of agility - so we concentrated on obedience, agility and tracking. :D

Edited cos I forgot to put the quotation marks in :D

Edited August 20, 2012 by Tassie

[Sparty]

Yes Piper i do weaken and and play fetch but mainly they are both flyball nuts so usually they are to drop the ball and grab the tug that could be part of it, i am not trying to get them to retrieve the ball that way.

I will keep going with the treats and clicker drives me nuts as Bodie has been ready for open apart from that one thing for years and is stubborn about it >.>

Tassie to you remember anyone getting a brother or sister of Bodie way back then? i was curious how they went, Zee is Bodie's half brother and the breeder mentioned a DOL Tassie person who came for a puppy years ago :)

[Tassie]

Don't know a BC Zee - haven't come across one in the various disciplines I do - maybe just a pet? :D (Sensible person ... :) No - not really :laugh: )

[Sparty]

lol nope Zee is his brother I got last year :) I just know 5 years ago one was taken back to tassie via DOL person :)

[piper]

Yes Piper i do weaken and and play fetch but mainly they are both flyball nuts so usually they are to drop the ball and grab the tug that could be part of it, i am not trying to get them to retrieve the ball that way.

I will keep going with the treats and clicker drives me nuts as Bodie has been ready for open apart from that one thing for years and is stubborn about it >.>

Tassie to you remember anyone getting a brother or sister of Bodie way back then? i was curious how they went, Zee is Bodie's half brother and the breeder mentioned a DOL Tassie person who came for a puppy years ago :)

I would totally change the picture then and keep the dumbbell retrieve totally different. Would definitely back chain it and probably start sitting on a chair so the whole thing looks nothing like the usual "game". And I would not add the throw for a long time - just carry, hold and present. Piper used to struggle to transition from stand to sit so we did lots of sit in front, be given the dumbbell and I would shuffle back and call her to front. Built that up to hold it, move back several metres and call to front. After that I went to placing it on the ground and returning to her and sending and then eventually throwing it.

[Tassie]

lol nope Zee is his brother I got last year :) I just know 5 years ago one was taken back to tassie via DOL person :)

Ah sorry - I was confused.... not hard to do - in my defence I was at work . So what was the prefix - I've forgottent, sorry.

And yes - what Piper says. As a refinement - I'd just do some 'fronts' in the chair first - to make the whole situation a good one for him. Then introduce the db - holding it by one end. Then depending what he does, you could either mark and treat for him taking the bar in his mouth - don't worry too much about duration of any hold at this stage - or, if he doesn't take it pretty much straight away, then do the Shirley Chong thing of building up from marking and rewarding attention, to touching, to taking in his outh. If he doesn't want to get involved straight away, just take the db away, and a a swig of your coffee (forgot to say you should have a mug of coffee or something stronger if you need it :laugh: and a book or something handy. Wait a minute or so, then see if he wants to get involved. (His alternative at this point is just being there on the lead being effectively ignored.

Just don't try for too much too soon - party for tiny, tiny duration of holds so that he gets the idea. Don't go to pick ups until the take is very definite and there is a little hold. You're building up a huge reinforcement history for him having the db in his mouth (even with your help) and you taking it.

In the meantime, I probably wouldn't be playing any fetch games with him - just so the waters don't get muddied again. You could play tuggie instead.

Oh, and until the behaviour you want is really strong, I wouldn't be trying to put a verbal cue on it - so the first thing he hears is your marker - verbal or clicker and your excitement.

That may or not make any sense .. sorry if it doesn't :laugh: .