A Question For Breeders

[Sheridan]

1345238921[/url]' post='5932704']

Totally agree with capanash. As a showie who breeds very little I feel that unfortunately in the ring temperament is not valued in the ring as much as "good looks" If judges put more.value on temperament then perhaps it would weed out those exhibits with dodgy temperaments.

Given a judge spends a minute or two with each dog at best, how is temperament assessed. How do you assess 'disciplined gameness' in a kerry blue terrier or in the case of a wheaten terrier if the dog is 'good-tempered, spirited and game, full of confidence and humour, a delightful, affectionate and intelligent companion' in a minute or two? I've never seen a wheaten in a ring do the 'wheaten greetin' at a judge. I suggest that the show ring cannot assess temperament. I think it can assess alertness, hence toys being thrown around a ring to see if a dog looks at it immediately, but affection or gameness? It would be interesting to hear from some judges on this.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Sheridan

[Rebanne]

1345238921[/url]' post='5932704']

Totally agree with capanash. As a showie who breeds very little I feel that unfortunately in the ring temperament is not valued in the ring as much as "good looks" If judges put more.value on temperament then perhaps it would weed out those exhibits with dodgy temperaments.

Given a judge spends a minute or two with each dog at best, how is temperament assessed. How do you assess 'disciplined gameness' in a kerry blue terrier or in the case of a wheaten terrier if the dog is 'good-tempered, spirited and game, full of confidence and humour, a delightful, affectionate and intelligent companion' in a minute or two? I've never seen a wheaten in a ring do the 'wheaten greetin' at a judge. I suggest that the show ring cannot assess temperament. I think it can assess alertness, hence toys being thrown around a ring to see if a dog looks at it immediately, but affection or gameness? It would be interesting to hear from some judges on this.

you could weed out some of the dogs, the ones the judges can't get their hands on, the ones that pee themselves at the approach of the judge.

[Poodle Mum]

1345238921[/url]' post='5932704']

Totally agree with capanash. As a showie who breeds very little I feel that unfortunately in the ring temperament is not valued in the ring as much as "good looks" If judges put more.value on temperament then perhaps it would weed out those exhibits with dodgy temperaments.

Given a judge spends a minute or two with each dog at best, how is temperament assessed. How do you assess 'disciplined gameness' in a kerry blue terrier or in the case of a wheaten terrier if the dog is 'good-tempered, spirited and game, full of confidence and humour, a delightful, affectionate and intelligent companion' in a minute or two? I've never seen a wheaten in a ring do the 'wheaten greetin' at a judge. I suggest that the show ring cannot assess temperament. I think it can assess alertness, hence toys being thrown around a ring to see if a dog looks at it immediately, but affection or gameness? It would be interesting to hear from some judges on this.

you could weed out some of the dogs, the ones the judges can't get their hands on, the ones that pee themselves at the approach of the judge.

Yes,....or those that try & snap or lunge their head around quickly when touched

[Sheridan]

1345256603[/url]' post='5932833']

1345244807[/url]' post='5932742']

1345240147[/url]' post='5932714']

1345238921[/url]' post='5932704']

Totally agree with capanash. As a showie who breeds very little I feel that unfortunately in the ring temperament is not valued in the ring as much as "good looks" If judges put more.value on temperament then perhaps it would weed out those exhibits with dodgy temperaments.

Given a judge spends a minute or two with each dog at best, how is temperament assessed. How do you assess 'disciplined gameness' in a kerry blue terrier or in the case of a wheaten terrier if the dog is 'good-tempered, spirited and game, full of confidence and humour, a delightful, affectionate and intelligent companion' in a minute or two? I've never seen a wheaten in a ring do the 'wheaten greetin' at a judge. I suggest that the show ring cannot assess temperament. I think it can assess alertness, hence toys being thrown around a ring to see if a dog looks at it immediately, but affection or gameness? It would be interesting to hear from some judges on this.

you could weed out some of the dogs, the ones the judges can't get their hands on, the ones that pee themselves at the approach of the judge.

Yes,....or those that try & snap or lunge their head around quickly when touched

Neither of which is assessing the temperament against the breeds I've listed other than ruling them out, How do you assess if a dog is affectionate and delightful?

[sandgrubber]

It is a great question you ask and already well answered by others.

What pops out to me in your post that I am wanting to respond to specifically is that similarly to what some have mentioned (and in no way is this reflecting on the OP at all nor is it intended to be about pet owner bashing) the breed standard usually calls for specifics in each breed's temperament. A particular breed of dog that exhibits correct temperament to breed standard may not be what one pet owner considers "best temperament" for them personally.

Therefore this dog does not have an "incorrect or bad temperament" but the pet owner perhaps has not done their home work comprehensively or has not been honest with themselves regarding their capabilities or lifestyle.

Sure. No need to pts a Labrador that won't fetch and doesn't like water. Such a dog may well make a great pet. But breeding from such a dog -- or allowing one to become a much used stud -- harms the breed.

As for breeding from dogs with "shite conformation" . . . I see no harm to this if the dog is exceptionally gifted in working characteristics, or the breed standard is being interpreted to encourage extreme conformation and the dog looks 'old fashioned' by modern standards (eg., a pug or pom whose nose isn't particularly flat, or an old style GSD). It is more important to preserve diversity in our breeds than to have all dogs look like the show standard of the day.

[Elenbah]

I think that there has been some excellent responses to your question Willow and I hope you got the answers you were seeking...

For me, it has to be the whole package. Type (it must look like my chosen breed) Conformation (it must be able to function like my chosen breed) and Temperament (it must behave like my chosen breed should)... Our Breed Standards (our blueprint of the breed) have been set down by those that came before us and as guardians of our chosen breeds, we owe it to those before us to strive to keep it as such. Each breed evolved for a purpose and each breed has type, conformation and temperament in line with that purpose...

In your question about forgoing conformation over having a perfect pet temperament. I ask you this, What is perfect pet temperament? Is it the dog happy to just lie around all day and never getting in the way or is it the hyperactive dog, full of energy and happy to play with the kids all day, just as a couple of examples....I say, what one pet owner is happy with may not be what another wants... One of my breeds, the Shetland Sheepdog, the Standard calls for the dogs temperament to be "reserved towards strangers, never nervous"... Many people used to say, shelties are nervous little dogs. But they originated in the Shetland Isles and were used to herd the sheep, they would go off into the mountains and watch over the sheep with little contact with many people. When they weren't doing that, they were watching the chooks, children etc of their Crofter owners. If these little dogs were not reserved towards strangers, then chances were they would go off and neglect their duties....... In recent years, breeders have introduced what some would call a "better temperament" in that these dogs will go to anyone, are more in your face and at times hard to live with because of their intelligence.... But they are not reserved and considered a better dog???

In Breeding for the show ring, its also about what dogs you are selecting to carry on your line and often weighing up what is going to be in the best interest of the breed as well as representing you in the ring.. I also think that there is more to selecting which mate is best for a certain dog then just putting two great specimens together. Often thoughts about what dogs you are going to put together are going over in your mind, months and sometimes even a couple of years before hand....

[Guest Willow]

Thanks you for all the replies! I haven't read through them all yet, but will do so with a cuppa in the morning :D