A Question For Breeders

[JulesP]

One reason I desexed Poppy was because she didn't have a temperament that I wanted to breed on. Great sporting dog but too much for the average pet person. A consideration in breeding the bitch I did breed was her lovely temperament. When my mentor was suggesting dogs she also took into account temperament.

[Sandra777]

Why is it an either-or thing?

A good dog must:

have the correct temperament for it's breed,

be healthy,

be physically capable of performing the function of the breed (so a Peke & a Border Collie don't have to have the same physical abilities),

must fit (insert % required) of the breed standard.

This last one is the point where compromises can be made - because there's always something that needs improving and it's up to the individual breeder to decide what of those points are acceptable to them personally.

Me, I have very definite physical things I won't do without on a Stafford, and other things I don't care either way - but the first three things are absolutely non-negotiable to me.

[mita]

Agree strongly with what Sandra said above.

Temperament and health should be up there with conformation and breed standards...in aiming towards the best possible examples of a particular breed. Along with that, should go an eye to the dog's long-term social welfare.

Here's a breeder's 'mission' statement which bears that out:

"My goal is, and I feel dedicated to, breed with healthy animals, only breed with animals that have good temperaments and within this frame, breed as close to the breed standard as I can, and to give life to puppies that have the best chance for a good long life and a loving home for the rest of their lives."

All of which led to that northern European breeder winning Best of Breed at the last Crufts Dog Show.

By luck, I own one of this breeder's dogs as a pet. She has a glorious temperament. Another pet owner, has her daughter. Also....glorious temperament.

That breeder matches her words with real work and effort. To be honest, as most I've come across do, too.

Edited August 16, 2012 by mita

[Salukifan]

Willow;..I was just sitting here wondering the same thing.If i was a dog breeder i would go with temperament every time .The dog that was not close to standard could still produce some pups that were of a good standard and better than thier parents and have the good temperament.I found this was often the case when breeding Budgies.

I would say it would be the same with dog breeding.If i'm wrong i'm sure someone will explain this to me.

Sadly few breeding decisions are this clear cut. It's not "good v bad" in temperament, performance or structure or type in any breeding decision. Its a balancing act of all of them.

It's ancestry and marrying lines to produce that drives good breeders. They're going far beyond considering the dogs in front of them.

A dog of outstanding temperament with shite conformation is never a good choice as a breeding prospect. You do not correct structural faults easily and a dog that it not close to standard is unlikely to throw good type. Poorly put together ancestors can bite you in the arse way down the line. And poorly constructed dogs make for heartbreak pets, no matter how sweet they are.

A dog of outstanding conformation that's won its arse off but has shite temperament is also a bad choice (although in my experience shite temperament means dogs will not show well).

Good breeders also aren't just considering the dogs in front of them but what's behind them. They will research pedigrees and blood lines and talk about them until they are blue in the face. So sometimes grandparents or other ancestors will be considered in the mix. A superb dog from ordinary parents can be a questionable choice also.

if you ask good breeders why they've done a particular mating, be sure to have a fresh cuppa and time to listen. The answer won't be short.

[Salukifan]

Most breed standards don't go into a lot of details about temperament though? The ones I have read might have a few words at most and then they're open to interpretation. There is usually a good page or two describing exactly how the dog should look, ears should fall etc.

Extended breed standards tend to be more enlightening. This is what the Whippet Extended Breed Standard says about temperament.

CHARACTERISTICS

An ideal companion. Highly adaptable in domestic and sporting surroundings.

"An ideal companion." He is equally at home as a devoted family pet or a highly intelligent sporting dog, happy to do whatever you are doing. If you feel like lounging around at home, that is fine, he will curl up in a corner and go to sleep, always with one ear cocked to know what you may do next. If you want to go for a day in the bush, that is fine too, as he is up in a flash, ready for anything.

TEMPERAMENT Gentle, affectionate, even disposition.

The Whippet is one of the least aggressive of dogs, both with people and with other dogs. He is gentle and affectionate in the extreme, but will also form a very close relationship with one particular person. He is amenable to discipline and very anxious to please. Whilst all this is true, he should not be at all retiring or shy. He might not be very interested in you, as a stranger, but he most definitely should not be timid, and will, given cause, warn off intruders.

Look For: A relaxed but confident, even disposition. A Whippet should be neither timid nor aggressive.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Haredown Whippets

[Tralee]

You haven't defined temperament or rather undesirable temperament.

In a working dog breed there can be a range of temperaments.

I have dogs at both ends of the range.

One, extremely 'dog and people friendly' and another, very 'dog and people assertive.'

However, they both fit the Maremma temperament.

One is slightly wary of strangers, the other is extremely so.

[Allerzeit]

Sandra's comments very closely match my own thoughts, and as PF commented, it's a balancing act rather than a this or that.

An additional example of how extended breed standards offer more information on temperament.

CHARACTERISTICS

Rottweiler breeders aim at a dog of abundant strength, black coated with clearly defined rich tan markings, whose powerful appearance is noble and is exceptionally well suited to being a companion, service and working dog.

With a basically friendly and peaceable nature, it acts quietly, in a wait and see attitude to influences in its environment, before responding appropriately.

The behaviour of the Rottweiler in the show ring should be that of a controlled animal, willing and adaptable, trained to submit to examination of mouth, testicles etc. However, an aloof or reserved dog should not be penalised.

A belligerent attitude between one Rottweiler and another in the ring should not be penalised, providing the dog is completely under control of the handler.

TEMPERAMENT

Behaviour and character. Being good natured, placid in basic disposition and fond of children, he is very devoted, obedient, biddable and eager to work. His appearance is natural and rustic, his behaviour self assured, steady and fearless. He reacts to his surroundings with great alertness.

It is hoped that judges will look for the correct calm, stable, alert, confident disposition required in this breed when assessing their exhibits. A Rottweiler cannot be true to type if it does not display the correct attitude, as well as the correct conformation.

Type in the Rottweiler should not be separated from the requirement that the Rottweiler is a working dog. Rottweilers who are dull, apathetic or lacking the necessary vitality of the breed should be penalised.

Those Rottweilers who display excessive nervousness, viciousness, suspicion, or exhibit cowardly behaviour in the show ring should be disqualified and receive no award.

[cowanbree]

What pops out to me in your post that I am wanting to respond to specifically is that similarly to what some have mentioned (and in no way is this reflecting on the OP at all nor is it intended to be about pet owner bashing) the breed standard usually calls for specifics in each breed's temperament. A particular breed of dog that exhibits correct temperament to breed standard may not be what one pet owner considers "best temperament" for them personally.

Therefore this dog does not have an "incorrect or bad temperament" but the pet owner perhaps has not done their home work comprehensively or has not been honest with themselves regarding their capabilities or lifestyle.

This is so true, strike it all the time with my chosen breed, shetland sheepdogs

[espinay2]

Some good comments so far.

A thought I would add is that I think the term 'temperament' is not always understood. What exactly is a 'good temperament' when it comes to breeding?

As has already been mentioned you will have behaviour traits that are speciic to a breed. The way a breed is required to act and react in order to do the job it is designed to do. This is an important part of 'temperament'.

There is also 'mental soundness'. By this I mean how the dog reacts to situations. For example how it responds to stress, or if it displays agression or shyness or fear that is inappropriate, out of character or a disproportionate response for the breed.

Both elements need to be considered when making breeding decisions.

But as mentioned, breeding is balance and I would not choose a dog based on just these elements alone. A 'nice nature' will not be worth much if the dog is in pain because of incorrect structure and 'breaks down' physically. A 'nice nature' is also not going to help much if it doesn't look or act like the breed is designed to when that is what you wanted and paid for. How a dog 'looks' can be just as important in lots of little ways too. If you choose a breed because it has tight lips and doesn't drool but the dog you get drools buckets and has saggy lips, or the 'easy care' coat is thick and cottony and takes much more work than in should, no matter how 'nice' the dog is, these types of things can sometimes be issues for owners.

At the same time, of course, a dog the 'looks the part' is not going to be much use if it freaks at everything, for example, and/or does not have the behaviour traits that would permit it to do the job it was designed to. It is all about balance.

[temperamentfirst]

If the temperament isn't good, I won't breed from a dog.

If the structure is not good enough, I won't breed from a dog.

For me, a dog must be sound in mind and body:-)

[dancinbcs]

With temperaments, you don't just consider the pair you are breeding but the ancestors for 3 or 4 generations and other relatives as well. You can breed from two dogs with great temperaments and still get problems through from an ancestor you doubled up on.

The same applies to all the other traits of structure and soundness.

There have been some good points made about temperaments being correct for the breed and the insticts they have been bred for. If a JRT doesn't want to kill rats it isn't correct for the breed no matter how "nice and friendly" it seems.

To me unacceptable temperament in any breed includes extreme nervousness or noise/storm phobia and any dog that will attack any human or other dog, unprovoked. By unprovoked I mean if it attacks when the person or animal is on neutral territory minding their own business and not even looking at the dog.

[aussielover]

There are different interpretations of breed standards and the show world interpretation is not necessarily the only or most correct interpretation. Without wanting to get into the whole show vs working debate, I believe that there are breeder of working line dogs that believe their dogs at least fit, and in some cases are the more correct interpretation of the breed standard.

It is a matter of opinion. I don't see a problem with breeding a dog that is conformationally and medically sound, fits the breed standard relatively closely and has an excellent temperament for the required purpose, even if it is not a show champion.

[Perfumed Lillium]

Most breed standards don't go into a lot of details about temperament though? The ones I have read might have a few words at most and then they're open to interpretation. There is usually a good page or two describing exactly how the dog should look, ears should fall etc.

With Poodles, the breed standard describes a "Joy of life". A poodle in the show ring must go around with all flags flying, head up, tail up and act like they own the ring. A Poodle with tail down on the move should not be awarded. I hate seeing any poodle being dragged around the ring and then backing off from a judge. The best show poodles are the hardest to live with and if you get that temperament (which we love) in a pet you need a really strong willed owner who is prepared to put in time and effort training.

We would never breed from a bad temperament poodle, especially a bitch, (so far haven't had one) even if it was the best conformation.

I was curious as to why the best show poodles are the hardest to live with? By saying that they require a strong-willed owner, is that to say that show poodles are head strong and perhaps a tad too 'cocky'? :D

Reason I ask is that my friend owns a standard male poodle (desexed at 14 mths) and he has a magnificent temperament, clean, has never been destructive unlike most pups, he prances around alot and loves to jump.... and he is considered 'show quality'...the only problem is that at feeding times he gets overly excited and at times jumps on her, she has tried to teach him not to do this but it seems to be falling on deaf ears, lol

[capanash]

I was curious as to why the best show poodles are the hardest to live with? By saying that they require a strong-willed owner, is that to say that show poodles are head strong and perhaps a tad too 'cocky'? :D

I am talking about Standard Poodles,potentially a large 30+kg dog, something you need to have contol over. Poodles are also very intelligent and will have some owners bluffed. Our first Standard was a pet desexed male, he had my husband organised every night to lift him onto the bed, poodle would stand beside the bed and look miserable until he was lifted up, took husband months to realise that the dog was perfectly able to jump up by himself. I have trained several poodles in obedience, they can be so frustrating when you know they are capable of an exercise, but choose not to do it.

The best dogs in the ring are the cocky ones, so full of life and act like they own the ring. Our current show dog is like this, but also very clean and loving. He is a multiple Best in Group, Class in Show and an All Breeds Best in Show winner. There are many times he has almost flattened us, just by being so happy to see us home and if you correct him too severely, he gets very upset.

[raineth]

If only people applied to themselves what (most) breeders apply to when selecting parnets of their next litter, I think world would be a diffrent place

:-)

harsh but true.

Oh yes ;then one would hope there would be less rude arrogant people in the world.

Is that a dig at me? :)

Less heart problems, less diabietes, less dissabilities and hopefully more and more intelligence

This topic is about dogs, not people. Do you really believe in Eugenics? That people should be 'bred' the way dogs are?

[Purdie]

If only people applied to themselves what (most) breeders apply to when selecting parnets of their next litter, I think world would be a diffrent place

:-)

harsh but true.

Oh yes ;then one would hope there would be less rude arrogant people in the world.

Is that a dig at me? :)

Less heart problems, less diabietes, less dissabilities and hopefully more and more intelligence

This topic is about dogs, not people. Do you really believe in Eugenics? That people should be 'bred' the way dogs are?

Read post 20.

[MonElite]

I belive people should have self responsibility when multiplying, but they dont.

But when it comes to animals and crops there are plenty of others to judge and question.

So no I dont belive in Eugenics as this would be forcing people to do something they dont want to do.

But since this is off topic it should be left alone, or should anyone choose to start an "off topic" subject I might participate.

[BlackJaq]

I think it has been said before by some people but I think it is important to rememeber that a "good temperament" in some breeds, in accordance with the breed standard, is not always a "good" temperament in a pet dog!

Not all correct dogs are suitable pets or at least not in the hands of the average pet home...

Edited August 17, 2012 by BlackJaq

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Some great comments so far. Just a couple of additional thoughts.

Temperament is linked to conformation. A dog who has arthritis or muscle tears or damage as a result of poor conformation can be grumpier and shorter in fuse than a physically sound dog, particularly if owned by someone who is clueless about their limitations. It's not, as HW says, an either or thing. It's all interconnected. I also theorise there is a link between anxious temperament and some autoimmune conditions, but that's not a scientific observation.

I think we have to define what we mean by good temperament. Dancinbcs made a good start upthread.

[Poodle Mum]

Totally agree with capanash. As a showie who breeds very little I feel that unfortunately in the ring temperament is not valued in the ring as much as "good looks" If judges put more.value on temperament then perhaps it would weed out those exhibits with dodgy temperaments.