Guest Willow Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 This is not intended to be inflammatory, I have a genuine question regarding ethical breeders. From what i know of breeding (very little actually), my understanding is that the breeder strives to better the breed, and breeds for good conformation, as well as good temperament. Would an ethical breeder breed specifically for excellent temperament, if there was the chance perfect conformation would be compromised? Or would a dog and bitch of outstanding temperament not be bred from if there was little chance of potential show dogs in the litter? I'm not talking about health or serious defects here, but more the dam and sire may not be "show ring perfect" but have such wonderful temperaments that they would be the kind of pups that should be in every home and out there being ambassadors for the breed.....or does this then put the breeder in the realms of not breeding for betterment of the breed standard, and into the realsm of the BYB mantra "but they were such nice dogs i wanted them to have puppies!"????? I'm pondering on this because as a dog owner, I would choose to buy a puppy from an ethical breeder, but I have no intention of showing, and would simply be after the best temperment, healthiest puppy i could buy, so things like the "wrong" colour, or perhaps one that doesn't look "right" for the show ring are not concerns for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 For me temperament is paramount. I don't care how beautiful something is if you can't live with it, it isn't worth having. When I breed a litter, I include temperament as being one of the selected traits that I am breeding for. Both parents must have good temperament in addition to whatever traits I want to cement or improve upon. Dodgy temperament in either is simply not negotiable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Temperament does come high on the list for me, but not to make "perfect pets". I follow the standard in all aspects as closely as I can and that includes temperament, and the temperament of a Weimaraner is a working dog, bred to be a multifunctional gundog breed that can hunt all day and go home at night and be with their master. I wouldn't be able to breed for temperament alone if i bred a dog who conformationally couldn't work all day, however I do aim, possibly higher than others, to breed for the correct temperament, and not the type of temperament that suits an everyday family who just wants a pet. My foundation bitch has a few faults I'm very aware of, conformationally, but her temperament when it comes to work ethic and endurance far exceeded my expectations in the breed. I simply took into account a great deal when i chose for her a stud dog. I chose one that complemented her good points, as well as had conformation that could improve on hers in their pups. The result was a very good one, because i did,for the most part, breed pups better than her conformationally, but maintained the temperament I wanted. I breed for the whole package, and I'll go out of my way to find the best possible matches so that I can achieve this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdie Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Willow;..I was just sitting here wondering the same thing.If i was a dog breeder i would go with temperament every time .The dog that was not close to standard could still produce some pups that were of a good standard and better than thier parents and have the good temperament.I found this was often the case when breeding Budgies. I would say it would be the same with dog breeding.If i'm wrong i'm sure someone will explain this to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 If only people applied to themselves what (most) breeders apply to when selecting parnets of their next litter, I think world would be a diffrent place :-) harsh but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjelkier Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Temperament does come high on the list for me, but not to make "perfect pets". I follow the standard in all aspects as closely as I can and that includes temperament, and the temperament of a Weimaraner is a working dog, bred to be a multifunctional gundog breed that can hunt all day and go home at night and be with their master. I wouldn't be able to breed for temperament alone if i bred a dog who conformationally couldn't work all day, however I do aim, possibly higher than others, to breed for the correct temperament, and not the type of temperament that suits an everyday family who just wants a pet. My foundation bitch has a few faults I'm very aware of, conformationally, but her temperament when it comes to work ethic and endurance far exceeded my expectations in the breed. I simply took into account a great deal when i chose for her a stud dog. I chose one that complemented her good points, as well as had conformation that could improve on hers in their pups. The result was a very good one, because i did,for the most part, breed pups better than her conformationally, but maintained the temperament I wanted. I breed for the whole package, and I'll go out of my way to find the best possible matches so that I can achieve this. This ^^ 100% If only people applied to themselves what (most) breeders apply to when selecting parnets of their next litter, I think world would be a diffrent place :-) harsh but true. Ain't that the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdie Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 If only people applied to themselves what (most) breeders apply to when selecting parnets of their next litter, I think world would be a diffrent place :-) harsh but true. Oh yes ;then one would hope there would be less rude arrogant people in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I have a low opinion of breeders who put conformation above temperament. They exist, and some of them win trophies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Good temperament has to be high on the list of priorites for show dogs or they will never succeed in the ring. A show dog has to be happy to be there to do any good, be relaxed in a confined space with very large numbers of dogs and people, and be examined, often my multiple judges, at every show. Breeding for any one trait leads to disaster. A good temperament is useless if the dog is suffering a hereditary disease or has conformation that makes their structure unsound. A lame dog, constantly in pain will not be happy even if it started with the best temperament. Finally there is is no point in breeding pure bred dogs if they look nothing like the breed standard. You may as well breed mongrels or mutts from anything wandering down the street. The whole point of breeding should be to preserve the pure breed type while improving health, temperament, structure and therefore soundness. Breeding good quality purebred dogs is quite complex and not just a matter of putting two of the same breed together like the BYBs do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Temperament is part of the breed standard so any ethical breeder strives to breed for the whole package . Pet owners should also expect to purchase a pup that looks like the breed & all the requirements per the breed standard . One shouldn't have to second guess what it is because a breeder breed solely for one thing Having said that a breeder can sell a wonderful pup with a super temperament & the pet owners ruin it . The pet owners also pay a massive role in the outcome of a pup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 If only people applied to themselves what (most) breeders apply to when selecting parnets of their next litter, I think world would be a diffrent place :-) harsh but true. Oh yes ;then one would hope there would be less rude arrogant people in the world. Is that a dig at me? :) Less heart problems, less diabietes, less dissabilities and hopefully more and more intelligence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) This is not intended to be inflammatory, I have a genuine question regarding ethical breeders. From what i know of breeding (very little actually), my understanding is that the breeder strives to better the breed, and breeds for good conformation, as well as good temperament. Would an ethical breeder breed specifically for excellent temperament, if there was the chance perfect conformation would be compromised? Or would a dog and bitch of outstanding temperament not be bred from if there was little chance of potential show dogs in the litter? I'm not talking about health or serious defects here, but more the dam and sire may not be "show ring perfect" but have such wonderful temperaments that they would be the kind of pups that should be in every home and out there being ambassadors for the breed.....or does this then put the breeder in the realms of not breeding for betterment of the breed standard, and into the realsm of the BYB mantra "but they were such nice dogs i wanted them to have puppies!"????? I'm pondering on this because as a dog owner, I would choose to buy a puppy from an ethical breeder, but I have no intention of showing, and would simply be after the best temperment, healthiest puppy i could buy, so things like the "wrong" colour, or perhaps one that doesn't look "right" for the show ring are not concerns for me. It is a great question you ask and already well answered by others. What pops out to me in your post that I am wanting to respond to specifically is that similarly to what some have mentioned (and in no way is this reflecting on the OP at all nor is it intended to be about pet owner bashing) the breed standard usually calls for specifics in each breed's temperament. A particular breed of dog that exhibits correct temperament to breed standard may not be what one pet owner considers "best temperament" for them personally. Therefore this dog does not have an "incorrect or bad temperament" but the pet owner perhaps has not done their home work comprehensively or has not been honest with themselves regarding their capabilities or lifestyle. For me breeding is about the whole package - health, type and temperament. Temperament is of utmost importance to me, particularly in my breed. But that still does not mean that a Rottweiler with correct temperament is for everybody. I will even go one step further and say that often the most ideal pet only Rottweilers often have slightly incorrect temperaments, yet make for a brilliant pet. I am sure similarly could be said for many working dog breeds. So then in a litter bred by an ethical registered breeder that always endeavours to produce the best puppies on every level, there may be a pup or two that exhibit a temperament that could be more suitably homed in a pet style situation. These breeders would know this and home these pups accordingly. For a pet person, these pups and breeders are gold if you can find them. If I was looking to purchase a pet only, I would still look for a breeder that breeds as closely to breed standard as they possibly can and produce show quality puppies that work well... but I would be open with the breeder about what I wanted in my pet and ensure they chose me the puppy to suit what I had to offer. I would not choose to buy a pup bred by breeder with less expectations, goals and ethics perhaps breeding for the pet market because they usually have no idea what they are producing and the pup would likely not have as good a temperament as the forementioned pup. Edited August 16, 2012 by dyzney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkyTansy Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 This is not intended to be inflammatory, I have a genuine question regarding ethical breeders. From what i know of breeding (very little actually), my understanding is that the breeder strives to better the breed, and breeds for good conformation, as well as good temperament. Would an ethical breeder breed specifically for excellent temperament, if there was the chance perfect conformation would be compromised? Or would a dog and bitch of outstanding temperament not be bred from if there was little chance of potential show dogs in the litter? I'm not talking about health or serious defects here, but more the dam and sire may not be "show ring perfect" but have such wonderful temperaments that they would be the kind of pups that should be in every home and out there being ambassadors for the breed.....or does this then put the breeder in the realms of not breeding for betterment of the breed standard, and into the realsm of the BYB mantra "but they were such nice dogs i wanted them to have puppies!"????? I'm pondering on this because as a dog owner, I would choose to buy a puppy from an ethical breeder, but I have no intention of showing, and would simply be after the best temperment, healthiest puppy i could buy, so things like the "wrong" colour, or perhaps one that doesn't look "right" for the show ring are not concerns for me. It is a great question you ask and already well answered by others. What pops out to me in your post that I am wanting to respond to specifically is that similarly to what some have mentioned (and in no way is this reflecting on the OP at all nor is it intended to be about pet owner bashing) the breed standard usually calls for specifics in each breed's temperament. A particularly breed of dog that exhibits correct temperament to breed standard may not be what one pet owner considers "best temperament" for them personally. Therefore this dog does not have an "incorrect or bad temperament" but the pet owner perhaps has not done their home work comprehensively or has not been honest with themselves regarding their capabilities or lifestyle. For me breeding is about the whole package - health, type and temperament. Temperament is of utmost importance to me, particularly in my breed. But that still does not mean that a Rottweiler with correct temperament is for everybody. I will even go one step further and say that often the most ideal pet only Rottweilers often have slightly incorrect temperaments, yet make for a brilliant pet. I am sure similarly could be said for many working dog breeds. So then in a litter bred by an ethical registered breeder that always endeavours to produce the best puppies on every level, there may be a pup or two that exhibit a temperament that could be more suitably homed in a pet style situation. These breeders would know this and home these pups accordingly. For a pet person, these pups and breeders are gold if you can find them. If I was looking to purchase a pet only, I would still look for a breeder that breeds as closely to breed standard as they possibly can and produce show quality puppies that work well... but I would be open with the breeder about what I wanted in my pet and ensure they chose me the puppy to suit what I had to offer. I would not choose to buy a pup bred by breeder with less expectations, goals and ethics perhaps breeding for the pet market because they usually have no idea what they are producing and the pup would likely not have as good a temperament as the forementioned pup. ^^^ this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Most breed standards don't go into a lot of details about temperament though? The ones I have read might have a few words at most and then they're open to interpretation. There is usually a good page or two describing exactly how the dog should look, ears should fall etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Temperament is part and parcel of conformation. I will not breed from a dog with a dodgy temperament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Most breed standards don't go into a lot of details about temperament though? The ones I have read might have a few words at most and then they're open to interpretation. There is usually a good page or two describing exactly how the dog should look, ears should fall etc. You are spot on there Megan and that is where research comes into play. It can be challenging but tracking down and speaking to people that not only show their dogs successfully but have been in the breed for a long time, train and compete in dog sports available to their breeds that is the same as or closely resembles what the breed was originally bred for is strongly recommended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 It is a great question you ask and already well answered by others. What pops out to me in your post that I am wanting to respond to specifically is that similarly to what some have mentioned (and in no way is this reflecting on the OP at all nor is it intended to be about pet owner bashing) the breed standard usually calls for specifics in each breed's temperament. A particular breed of dog that exhibits correct temperament to breed standard may not be what one pet owner considers "best temperament" for them personally. Therefore this dog does not have an "incorrect or bad temperament" but the pet owner perhaps has not done their home work comprehensively or has not been honest with themselves regarding their capabilities or lifestyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capanash Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Most breed standards don't go into a lot of details about temperament though? The ones I have read might have a few words at most and then they're open to interpretation. There is usually a good page or two describing exactly how the dog should look, ears should fall etc. With Poodles, the breed standard describes a "Joy of life". A poodle in the show ring must go around with all flags flying, head up, tail up and act like they own the ring. A Poodle with tail down on the move should not be awarded. I hate seeing any poodle being dragged around the ring and then backing off from a judge. The best show poodles are the hardest to live with and if you get that temperament (which we love) in a pet you need a really strong willed owner who is prepared to put in time and effort training. We would never breed from a bad temperament poodle, especially a bitch, (so far haven't had one) even if it was the best conformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) As a Breeder I would like to strive for the things that are important in a breed. I would not number them in any order of my prority or give one more importance over another....I look at them as a package. Temperament, health and conformation are of equal importance to me...no dog has yet been born perfect but it is still that perfection that we must aim for. Temperament is probably the easiest for anyone to asses though. Edited August 16, 2012 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdie Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) If only people applied to themselves what (most) breeders apply to when selecting parnets of their next litter, I think world would be a diffrent place :-) harsh but true. Oh yes ;then one would hope there would be less rude arrogant people in the world. Is that a dig at me? :) Less heart problems, less diabietes, less dissabilities and hopefully more and more intelligence ......No not a shot at you....I take offence when people joke about breeding humans in the same way as animals . This was tried in war time with people being exterminated because they had disabilities or were considered not intelligent enough. efs Edited August 16, 2012 by Purdie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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