To De-sex Or Not To De-sex, Advice And Opinions, Please?

[BlackJaq]

Hello Everybody :)

So I understand that there are people on either side of the de-sex and breeding issue who feel very strongly about their point but I would liek to make the best decision for my dog and myself so I would really appreciate opinions based on our situation, rather than non-compromising individual opinions :)

In 2010 I bought a main register Weimaraner bitch with the intention of raising at least one litter and she is now almost 2 years old.

We've been struggling with keeping weight on her pretty much from the beginning and she has been seen by several vets very regularly throughout her life for various reasons including some minor accidents and she is healthy as far the vets and I can tell, vaccinated (heart worm + c3), wormed regularly and flea treated as necessary (not very often as we live out of town without neighbours/stray dogs).

She has been on various diets and apart from the fact that she is skinny for periods of time (skinny as in, all ribs are visible, pointy hip bones but good muscling around chest, belly and thighs) she does not have any issues. Her coat and teeth are good and she is active and outgoing. She went through a period where she was rather skinny and had anal gland issues for that time but they seem to be linked to the amount of fat around that area and simply do not express properly when they are sunken in to a degree. Anal gland issues have not been issues for several months now.

I feel that it is in her best interest to abolish my plans for a litter in favor of de-sexing her as I do think she will be battling with weight during preganacy and especially whilst nursing puppies. She does not seem overly fond of puppies as it is and being on heat is not her favorite time of year, since she is not allowed in the bed and has to wear "pants" (basically I use budgie smugglers with an open fly for her tail and ladies' pads) inside and in the car during heat to avoid everybody suffocating on the stink :p She bleeds fairly heavily and I didn't keep exact records for length of heat but I believe she stays on for 4 weeks or more generally from start to fnish.

Not having puppies will definately not be the end of the world for me since I love my girl very much and do not want to do anything that is not in her best interest. As it is, I was scared of the pregnancy and birth.

So, does anybody have any advice or opinions? I'm pretty much open to all opinions on the matter since I am as yet undecided on whether or not to de-sex her. She seems to be gaining some weight with her current diet but still only weighs around 25-26 kg. I think around 27-28 would probably be an ideal weight for her but even if she was hovering around the lower end of that, I believe puppies would quickly reduce her back to an unhealthy weight?

[Rebanne]

has she been evaluated by someone experienced in the breed to see how well she meets the standard? Have you asked her breeder what they think about her quality and also about her weight issues? Has she had what ever relevent health tests are needed? are you prepared for the costs? what if she needs a c-section, what if she dies? It does happen.

I wouldn't worry about whether she likes puppies or not, that has little bearing on how she would react to her own. As for not liking being in season, well that's a bit subjective. I don't use pants on my girl, I don't like them.

I think you need to be happy with whatever the answers are to my questions, then and only then, go ahead and breed her. If you don't like the answers you come up with then spay her.

[Aussienot]

How has she done in the show ring or in retrieving trials? Who apart from you has evaluated your bitch to determine if she is good enough to breed from? If you can give positive answers to these questions then don't desex and learn how to become a breeder. Then health test, then determine if you are able to do all the work of raising a litter before you even think about breeding.

If you are not planning to be a responsible breeder, then it is easier to live with a desexed dog.

[dancinbcs]

The breeder of your bitch and/or the owner of her sire should be the ones to help you decide if she should be bred or not. If she really is a good example of her breed, has good results for any relevant health testing and you are prepared for the costs, work and risks involved, then go ahead and breed her. You also need to either have a prefix or arrange to breed under someone else's, preferably whoever will mentor you through the whole process. Access to a good breeder's vet is also essential for a new breeder.

Not liking puppies and being skinny are not really relevant to the decision. Many bitches don't like any puppies except their own and a lot never seem to gain weight until they either have a litter or get desexed.

[BlackJaq]

No she has not been to any shows yet, which is why I haven't been looking to breed her. I wasn't going to have her bred until around this time next year and was going to take her to a few shows in the coming months. If she didn't do well I also would have spayed her but I am now thinking that there is not much point in spending the kind of money it takes to travel and show her (I show my horses so I have a good idea how much this will cost me) if I am going to de-sex her anyways, time is also an issue because I cannot be in two rings at once.

Her breeder seems to think she will do well. If there were obvious problems she probably would not have been sold with main registration, then again se was very young when this was decided. I will post some photos for your viewing pleasure if you like. Several locals who also own Weis and have showed and bred in the past seemed to think we should do well also. There will be no breeding without proper evaluation.

All vets consulted on the issue seemed to think it was not an issue because they "are a lean breed" and when asked about blood tests all agreed that we would likely not find much. I will have some blood drawn now anyways to help me in my decision. Do you think there are other tests that should be done?

Finacially I should be able to cover whatever medical care she needs, including c-section, aftercare, hospitalization, etc

I obviously don't want her to die hence my thinking about spaying now rather than going through with her having a litter and then struggling to maintain herself as well as puppies.

I realize that most dogs will usually like their own puppies, even if they do not like other puppies but I feel I know her quite well and simply do not feel that she would enjoy raising a litter. It is only a gut feeling based on me knowing the dog for almost two years now and of course I could be wrong and she would love it. There is no way of knowing until after things are done unfortunately.

May I ask why you don't like pants? How do you deal with dogs on heat inside? It seems some dogs bleed less and so are able to clean up after themselves a little better. Sadly when we tested that theory we ended up with spotted carpets and open windows for about 2 weeks after heat lol

Edited August 15, 2012 by BlackJaq

[BlackJaq]

Wow, thanks for the many quick replies :)

So you think as long as there is a good show record the skinnyness should not be an issue?

What are my chances of finding someone locally to help me out with the dog show side of things? Everyone I know is either "retired" or too far away

I am in the Orange/Dubbo area if anybody has any suggestions? ;) Or am I better off asking in the "showring" subforum?

[Rebanne]

May I ask why you don't like pants? How do you deal with dogs on heat inside? It seems some dogs bleed less and so are able to clean up after themselves a little better. Sadly when we tested that theory we ended up with spotted carpets and open windows for about 2 weeks after heat lol

I don't like them because they are not natural and the dog never has a chance to attend to her own cleaning and they block air flow, which could create the smell you describe. All I have ever done with my girls is throw extra bedding on the couches etc and I use several polar fleece blankets on my bed. They are easily washed. Carpets are fairly easily cleaned. I'd crate a bitch before I would put pants on her. Then a quick wipe when let out. It is only blood after all and it doesn't faze me.

[BlackJaq]

Fair enough :)

I have to add that we live on a farm and spend many hours a day outside without the pants on. Generally there will be several hours outside in the morning, then lunch indoors, and another few hours outside before dark. Then indoors over night so she is not wearing them all day without a chance to clean up at all.

I am really less worried about the stains than the smell. My partner is not very big on animals indoors and the compromise was for her to wear pants inside instead of sleeping outside during heat.

Of course making her sleep outside was completely unacceptable to me but not everybody feels the same way about dogs and unfortunately, my partner doesn't. In that sense I thought the compromise was fair :)

ETA: After some further thinking I have pretty much decided to spay. I don't think anybody looses this way (in fact, I will be saving a LOT of money lol) and we will not have to go through another heat, which will be a bonus for both of us I think. If we are really lucky she will finally get to a normal, steady weight after spaying...

Edited August 15, 2012 by BlackJaq

[SparkyTansy]

I think you should ask yourself also, what is the point of breeding her? does her breeder have her lines and what would you be contibuting to the breed if you bred her that her breeder isn't already? Are you in a position to find suitable homes for the pups you breed, including providing support to buyers if they themselves want to show or do dog sports?

If your breeder is encouraging the litter, is it because they want something out of her? because if that is the case, you could perhaps see if they wanted to take her back for a litter under their prefix, rather than you having to go out, get a prefix and do all the relevant health testing (vet checks aren't enough - you need her hip and elbow scored). Again, if the breeder HAS those lines, for example, then there isn't really that much NEED to contribute further to the population, unless she's exceptional, and puppies she produces will go on to better the breed (and if this was the case, I'm sure the breeder would have either kept her herself, or asked to lease her from you sooner).

The fact is, it sounds as though you yourself are leaning towards giving it a miss, and you are looking for reasons you may not have thought of to breed her. If you have a gut feeling she wouldn't cope with a litter, follow that instinct and desex her. If she rejects the litter that would mean a pretty big committment to raising the litter yourself, for a start.

From memory, also, there are a couple of BYB Weimaraner breeders in that area. do you have the power/contacts and time to look for the right homes and ensure that the pups aren't going to BYBs or unsuitable homes because the market is effectively flooded in your area?

[BlackJaq]

Mmm yes finding suitable homes for the pups is a formidable task which, to be honest, I haven't really given enough consideration. I feel that this breed is definately not suitable to everyone and without guidance from an experienced breeder I would likely not be able to screen potential puppy buyers properly.

I think spaying is going to be the better option for both of us and we are booked in for the 19th of Septmeber now since she is on heat atm.

I didn't realize about the BYBs in this area but am not surprised to be honest :p

[persephone]

I think you and your dog will be more content ...and the OH may also mellow out :p

[BlackJaq]

Here is a picture with our "pants" on, just for the entertainment value :p

[Katdogs]

She's beautifully shiny and healthy looking. Nice pants!

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

No shortage of dogs, there's even a Weimeraner rescue. Unless showing, desex for sure, life will be much easier.

[Zug Zug]

Aw she's beautiful!

I think you know deep down that you don't really want to breed her. Just because she is entire is no reason to feel any kind of obligation to breed. It is a huge commitment.

I think you have made the right decision.

[Rilla-My-Rilla]

She's really pretty, and well looked after looking

[BlackJaq]

Thank You everyone :)

I'm definately looking forward to enjoying her as a pet and sporting companion and not having to worry about her being on heat and attracted every loose dog in a several km radius to scratch on ym car dor anymore :p

Seeing as this thread is already here now I might as well pepper it with some more funnies (and maybe keep it near the top for others with a similar question to read since it didn't degenerate as some others on this topic have in the past lol no offence anyone)

Here is a conformation shot from yesterday, free standing lol

Somebody said before that she was lacking in forechest and it's definately true. She is also somewhat oversized now. By around 2 cm I believe. Not sure how much she would be penalized for this.

We have also further discussed the weight issues in the Weimaraner thread and it seems like the sudden drops in weight might actually be anxiety related. I did not really notice this before, but they seem to occur when I go away over night since I usually take her along whenever posisble. Afterwards it is very difficult to get the weight back on her but since she can and has reached a decent condition before these episodes, physical illness is unlikely. Here are the "skinny" and "normal" photos I posted in the Weim thread:

Skinnies:

Normals:

[BlackJaq]

One more :p

[iggy mum]

:love:

[grizabella]

She really is gorgeous! Looks so happy as well, what a beautiful girl!