Stillborn Puppies

[mantis]

"As long as the bitch behaves normally and does not show any signs of distress and will eat well and not have any unusual discharge from her vulva in the next few days, which needs to be monitored carefully," the vet says, "there is no need for medical action."

Oh ?

So, no post whelping check of bitch & whelps is to be done at all ? I thought that was routine ..(or, it always used to be, )...especially after still births with an unknown cause , and a first litter .

Agree with you, even if it was an easy whelping, a visit to a Vet is needed. Have to make sure no pups left inside, the pups are OK, no cleft palette etc.

Kenny's Mum had 13 pups over 12 hours, gawd that was a long night, one was born not breathing, (my Kenny) but managed to bring him back to life & two were breach births. A first time breeder I can imagine being overwhelmed, but a Vet check after the birth is a must.

[Red Fox]

Romana, I DO live in your area and use the same vet. It sounds a bit odd that they don't want to see the bitch?? If it were me I'd be contacting either John or Nicola (at that clinic) for a second opinion. Both are very thorough and will give you good advice.

[Tralee]

Stress can cause the symptoms listed.

There is a technical term for the discolouration and poor survival rate.

As a veteran now of several litters, I would not consult anybody less that a reproduction specialist.

You would not go to a GP when you need a Gynacologist.

Also, the point about choosing to breed changing the dynamics of natural birthing is well made.

Breeding is an intervention and an interference.

What this means is you have to know what is happening at every stage and in every circumstances.

[Guest]

Hi romana. I'm assuming the bitch n pups r shepherds? I've been breeding for some time now n never would I consider black dead pups normal - to me it screams mummification n with that is the risk of infection. I don't understand how 24 of active labour is normal nor can I understand why a vet was not consulted sooner! I don't mean to come off rude but in the 73 pups born at my hand (yer I had some HUGE litters n some were not my litters but births I was assisting in) I have never had more then 3 still borns 1 from a large litter. Then 2 from the same litter, one of those I was willing to sacrifice if it ment saving my bitch. I think if ur new to this n ur not havering a normal labour or have multiple dead pups that don't look right why u would not (out of pure love for ur dog n not wanting to risk her) seek vet assistance?????

And no matter how fantastic any whelping goes n how healthy the pups appear or how well the bitch is a post birth vet visit is ALWAYS a good idea for a first time bitch or breeder who may not know what they are doing! ESP when u say things like "in case there r more pups" this tells me a x ray was not done n u don't know if she has them all out! While I don't x ray all my girl (not needed in mini's) then u should have a vet check over to make sure any dead pups r out (generally without a wriggling pup to tell mum there still in her tum contractions will stop) and give a injection to push any remaining after birth / placentas out.

I wish I could be more supportive but asking a forum for help when a vet is a phone call or quick stop away because its cheaper is not what I would be considering a wise idea.

Fact is with the natural process dogs die n while I my self had a natural childbirth for my baby I would never choose that for my dog if it risked her health. Stuff the natural process. That's a piss poor excuse for not paying for after hours vet care. Common bloody sence "we have lots of dead black pups comin gout n this whelp is taking longer then it should, MAYBE we should get to the vet?!?!?"

[zeebie]

Not that it is any help but the deceased pups 'blackened mucosa' would probably be due to decay due to death in utero at some early stage in the pregnancy, without seeing them is hard to know but by the very fact they were underdeveloped this indicates time of death, the bitch was lucky not to have suffered any sort of toxic effect from retaining these pups and not having gone into an earlier labour then she did, with a natural birthing process and having had so many deceased pups etc it is critical to have her and other pups checked immediately to ensure all are well and I know if this was my dog I would have been at vet as soon as the first deceased pup was whelped.

[juice]

Why are you a mentor when clearly you need one yourself

Lucky this bitch and pups made it at all.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I'd be getting them checked out as well..

Not to be negative but if your mentoree hadn't got the money for a vet check she probably shouldn't be breeding period.. It's important for the bitch and pups to have access to vetinary care..

I just hope for her sake it's nothing too major

Breeding can be a costly business. What if the dog ever needs a caesarean or other treatment? I dread to think. This is a highly irresponsible thing to do if you can't afford it although i'm sure she was looking forward to the money at the other end of the process - selling the puppies.

I hope she can afford to now get this poor dog desexed.

And Romana, I'm not a "nasty" - I'm a rescuer who believes in responsible handling of dogs whenever they need medical help. There are way too many out there breeding for profit - it's the animals that suffer. We also euthanase 150,000 dogs every year, no need for people to make more unless they know what they are doing and have the animal's health as their paramount concern.

Edited August 14, 2012 by dogmad

[minimax]

P.S.: And regarding the litter that someone who has no idea of the circumstances calls an "oops" litter - there was no "oops" at all. The litter was planned, well considered and the best option available at that time. With the next approved stud dog registered with your club living some 1000km far away and impossibility to travel whenever you want some people have to find more practical solutions, be it within or outside of specific clubs.

I love this response!

Quote from her website, about the well planned litter:

Below, I have added some pictures of our second litter of puppies - born more than 2 years ago (born on 11 November 2009); that time, we had only four, as it was an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy and the mating happened three weeks after the beginning of Envy's season (with Brutus) when we thought that the 'dangerous time' was over.

And I thought my planning skills sucked :p

Edited August 14, 2012 by minimax

[Romana]

I love this response! Quote from her website ...

Juice, Mimimax, and a few others: You are obviously the type of people who drive other, friendly and peaceful, people out of online forums. At least I won't participate in this one any more if people like you keep desperately trying to find some fault in my history or on my website or in my previous online contributions rather than providing useful responses to my current question. I will delete all my contributions here, should this continue, because I strongly object to your attitude and behaviour.

Minimax, firstly, it is a huge indiscretion to disclose the private identity and contact details (as featured on my website) of any other forum members, unless they have done it before themselves. Secondly, you did not at all specify in your first attack on me which litter you were talking about. Then, you were trying to ridicule me for picking the wrong one.

But if you are interested in the whole story, here you are: With the litter that you have specified now, the only reason why we didn't want a litter at that time was a planned holiday trip. Both dogs were registered and approved for breeding, unrelated, old enough, perfectly healthy with good hip/elbow scores, and meant for each other. But, nevertheless, we brought the male to a boarding kennel for the time of the dam's heat and paid not little for his care. Three weeks later, I asked the manager of the dog boarding kennel to bring him back home, because my car had broken down on that day, but instead of first ringing the bell to notify me that they had arived, he first opened the back gate and let Brutus run into the backyard, not knowing that Envy was running free. We then cancelled our holiday trip. So, are you happier now? - Am I an irresponsible breeder and a horribly bad person because I didn't put chains and locks and warning signs on our back gate? I recommend you enquire about some details in future first, before you attack people out of some weird destructive mood.

By the way, the dam and her pups in question here, on this thread, have been vet checked yesterday and found perfectly healthy. Nevertheless, an appointment has been arranged with a reproduction specialist (John) for next Monday, also to examine one of the (now frozen) pups to identify the cause of death.

With that, I believe that we can close this thread now. Further comments on or off topic please by private mail directed to me only - as "thanks" to Minimax all of you now have direct access to my phone and email. Thank you and goodbye!

[minimax]

With that, I believe that we can close this thread now. Further comments on or off topic please by private mail directed to me only - as "thanks" to Minimax all of you now have direct access to my phone and email. Thank you and goodbye!

Dude, if you put something on the internet it isn't private.

But I am glad mum and surviving pups are ok.

Edited August 15, 2012 by minimax

[Rebanne]

With that, I believe that we can close this thread now. Further comments on or off topic please by private mail directed to me only - as "thanks" to Minimax all of you now have direct access to my phone and email. Thank you and goodbye!

anybody with a computer and using google can find you, that's what happens when you have a website, in fact that is usually the purpose of having a website.

[Linda K]

Romana, looks like you are doing as well with the dog breeding as you did with the cat breeding.

[persephone]

By the way, the dam and her pups in question here, on this thread, have been vet checked yesterday and found perfectly healthy. Nevertheless, an appointment has been arranged with a reproduction specialist (John) for next Monday, also to examine one of the (now frozen) pups to identify the cause of death.

That's really good news :)

[rebelsquest]

I just can't help it, have to answer once again.

Most of you are talking like metropolitan citizens. You are not taking into perspective the lifestyle in the countryside, far away from the big cities. In our area, there is one (1) vet on call during the night within a radius of 100 km. I and the bitch's owner live only 20 km apart and use the same vet, but I get a breeder's discount, that's why I do all the calls. I kept in close touch with the first-time breeder over the phone last night. If I hadn't children and if there was someone else to look after them at night, I would have been there in person. Both of us, I and the first-time breeder, haven't slept a minute last night, but attended the birth. I also inquired yesterday afternoon in our vet clinic who would be on duty and I made the vet on duty aware that there is a certain possibility that she might get an emergency call in the middle of the night. She is not a reproduction specialist, but a young lady from Ireland, just graduated from uni and enjoying an exciting Aussie experience. It costs about $300 per hour to call her out in the middle of the night, and the clinic's safety policy is that the patient must come to the clinic, and house visits can be made in very exceptional cases only. Anyway, we still would have called the vet and would have gone for the drive with the birthing bitch if she had shown any signs of suffering or despair. But the mother was very relaxed and, according to her owner, didn't even appear like being in pain while she pushed the dead puppies out.

The reason why I asked on an Internet forum was, because I wanted to know whether anyone here knows what BLACK GUMS AND A BLACK TONGUE could possibly mean in such a dead puppy. In our breed, puppies generally have pink gums and tongues when born. I thought someone here on the forum would know about this particular feature and point me to the right direction, why those puppies died. In the past, I have got many amazing answers from some incredible people on Internet forums, in Australia and internationally, including things which my vets didn't know and which, upon further examination, proved right.

Did you ask the vet when you spoke to them? They are probably more equipped to give you an answer than an internet forum.

[janisw]

OHHH my god, is this serious. The highlighted below are of serious concern for me & I dont even breed dogs yet it still dont seems right at all. I live in the country too & it doesnt cost $300 an hour for a out of uni vet to attend me & my animals after hours. Not sure i would be using that vet to be honest. Bitch didnt appear to be in any pain but dead pups & so many are not cause for concern???

breeding best left alone by you & your neighbour i think.

Most of you are talking like metropolitan citizens. You are not taking into perspective the lifestyle in the countryside, far away from the big cities. In our area, there is one (1) vet on call during the night within a radius of 100 km. I and the bitch's owner live only 20 km apart and use the same vet, but I get a breeder's discount, that's why I do all the calls. I kept in close touch with the first-time breeder over the phone last night. If I hadn't children and if there was someone else to look after them at night, I would have been there in person. Both of us, I and the first-time breeder, haven't slept a minute last night, but attended the birth. I also inquired yesterday afternoon in our vet clinic who would be on duty and I made the vet on duty aware that there is a certain possibility that she might get an emergency call in the middle of the night. She is not a reproduction specialist, but a young lady from Ireland, just graduated from uni and enjoying an exciting Aussie experience. It costs about $300 per hour to call her out in the middle of the night, and the clinic's safety policy is that the patient must come to the clinic, and house visits can be made in very exceptional cases only. Anyway, we still would have called the vet and would have gone for the drive with the birthing bitch if she had shown any signs of suffering or despair. But the mother was very relaxed and, according to her owner, didn't even appear like being in pain while she pushed the dead puppies out.